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30. september 2009, 16:41:28
Übergeek 바둑이 
Onderwerp: Master-Slave Morality
> you underestimate that people living in wealth don't share the same degree of
> compassion

This is true to a great extent, but we cannot so easily make a broad generalization of this nature. I am not a student of philosophy, but the German philosopher Friederich Nietzsche came very close to unravelling the nature of western principles of morality. What our western society sees and good and evil.

among the many things that he wrote on the subject the main work would be "On the Genealogy of Morals".

Synopsis: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_Genealogy_of_Morality
Full text: http://records.viu.ca/~johnstoi/Nietzsche/genealogytofc.htm

In this work Nietzche argued that western principles of good and bad come down from a Greek view of good and evil. He wrote that our concept of good is born out of a contradiction.

On the one hand, we have good as seen by the "master" class: good is wealth, health, nobility, strength and power (like the ancient Greek heroes); while bad is poverty, weakness, disease and the pathetic (what the Greeks saw as the afflictions and curses of humanity).

On the other hand, we have good as seen by the "slave" class: good is charity, piety, restraint, meekness, and subservience (as represented in the values of Judeo-Christian religions); while bad is cruelty, selfishness, greed, indulgency, and aggression (those defects that would curse a human being into Hell). This "slave" morality arose in response to the "master" morality and has become central to Judeo-Christian morality.

In "Beyond Good and Evil" Nietzche further argued that the powerful put themselves beyond this concepts of good and evil by using their wealth and power in their own favor.

Synopsis: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beyond_Good_and_Evil
Full Text: http://www.allphilosophers.com/nietzsche/nindex.html

It explains why our world is so full of contradictions. Consider John D. Rcokefeller, the man who became (and still is) the richest man in history. On the one hand he went to build the biggest monopoly in history and threw the police to workers that went on strike in his companies. On the other hand he gave $1 billion to charity. There is a clear contradiction. Bad to his workers, but charitable to the poor. His pursuit of wealth gave him a "master" morality, while at the same time he could not abandon those "Christian" principles of "slave" morality.

We see this with other very wealth multimillionaires. That clear contradiction of principles. We also see it in our wars. Good Christians (or Moslems, Jews, Hindus, etc.) will go to war, kill thousands, and then wash their hands of responsibility on the name of higher principles of "good". They sleep soundly knowing that they will go to Heaven because "good" is on their side.

30. september 2009, 16:51:42
Bwild 
Onderwerp: Re: Master-Slave Morality
Übergeek 바둑이: "On the other hand he gave $1 billion to charity."
can you say tax write off?

30. september 2009, 17:50:43
Mort 
Onderwerp: Re: Master-Slave Morality
Übergeek 바둑이: Judaism calls it the two Yetzer's. One is the 'God' morality, the other that drives us to marry, have children.

It is not 'evil' as in the Greek sense, but if the second (referred in Egyptian religion as the lesser God) is not commanded by our own 'God' morality.. that's when what we call evil happens.

It is often that the lesser god (Yetzer ra) is called Satan, or the Devil.. this is just bad understanding and the ability to blame supernatural beings for our own failings. It was good in the old days (as one lady explained)... there wasn't much law. And such so called 'pagan' ideas helped control the population.. then religion got and abused it.
From a pure philosophy point... there is no such thing as good or bad.. there is what is.

As for the master and slave classes, Nietzsche's arguments are a bit flawed and does not fully explain Judaic/Christain/Muslim concepts.

But I'm not getting into that here... take about a dozen pages

30. september 2009, 19:24:57
Übergeek 바둑이 
Onderwerp: Re: Master-Slave Morality
(V):

> As for the master and slave classes, Nietzsche's arguments are a bit flawed
> and does not fully explain Judaic/Christain/Muslim concepts.

That is true. Nietzche wasnot able to explain everything fully, but I am not sure if that was his intent. I think that he merely tried to explain some general trends in western ethics and morality. He never saw the 20th century and how western society evolved. However, I think he makes valid points on how it is that people can do terrible things in the name of higher principles. He saw that contradiction in western society.

30. september 2009, 20:36:54
Mort 
Onderwerp: Re: Master-Slave Morality
Übergeek 바둑이: The art of passing the buck is a well established tradition. Our 'modern society' is not so modern, just revamped with new names for the 'bosses'. Rome wasn't built in a day and neither was the Roman Church. The Protestant Church carried on that tradition an so to a degree have our government's and even businesses.

I think Nietzsche was just trying to do something that a certain Carpenter sought 2000 years ago. To show us what we were doing and how to escape it. Many have, and done good job's explaining the 'human' condition throughout history.

He was attacking tradition, and how we were (and still do through various institutions and businesses) forcing tradition's and belief's down throats rather then encourage free thinking. "Believe us not them or burn in hell", "Better dead then red", "Buy this or be behind the Jones's", etc.. etc...

How many temples do the money changers want??

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