MissDelish: 5 bil is close to 2/3 of all the people in the world.

Printing statements like what that one economist said can grab our interest and sell news papers, but if you think about what it really means...

"One economist stated..." that nearly 2/3 of all the people in the world "were affected by this rigging of Libor rates"

It's like the butterfly effect. If you accidentally kill a butterfly, it can affect the lives of thousands of people.. or millions of people.. or billions.. or trillions...

I killed a bug the other day. The possible repercussions are mind boggling.

(V): "How could the actions of Barclays' traders affect me? As already discussed, the Libor rate is determined from the banks telling the British Bankers' Association their own interbank lending rates. It goes into a pot with figures from other banks to work out the daily rate. Any change in that main rate could feed through the financial system to make loans, mortgages or credit card interest rates more expensive, or cheaper. One economist stated today that 5 billion people were affected by this rigging of Libor rates"

Really? 5 billion people out of a total world population of...

http://www.census.gov/main/www/popclock.html

(V): "One economist stated today that 5 billion people were affected by this rigging of Libor rates"

http://pamelaannedavis.files.wordpress.com/2008/11/marceau.jpg?w=500

Newton Leroy Gingrich

http://i.qkme.me/35sbas.jpg

Artful Dodger: Some have only one face.

http://www.jonathanrosenbaum.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/mars_attacks2.jpg

(V): "I would have thought the fines and that a class action is to take place would have been news worthy"

I'm not a banker, so news about banks doesn't exactly float my boat. Besides, you have a worse banking problem to worry over in your own neck of the woods...


Insurance giant’s move follows Siemens’ decision to remove E500m from Societe Generale
LAST UPDATED AT 16:31 ON Wed 21 Sep 2011
WHAT HAPPENED?
The insurance market Lloyd's of London has followed in the footsteps of other large institutions and pulled its deposits from some European banks, concerned at their ability to weather the deepening debt crisis gripping the eurozone.

Finance director Luke Savage told Bloomberg: "If you're worried the government itself might be at risk, then you're certainly worried the banks could be taken down with them.

"We have a very conservatively positioned balance sheet," Savage said, noting that Lloyd's holds around £800m of its assets in cash, which it has stopped depositing with banks in Europe's peripheral economies, though he declined to name the countries or banks.

WHAT DOES IT MEAN?
The Lloyd's announcement follows yesterday's news that German engineering giant Siemens had removed €500m from the French bank Societe Generale two weeks ago and placed the money in a European Central Bank (ECB) account, apparently alarmed by the financial health of SocGen going forward.

As panic increases within European financial circles at the prospect of a Greek default, which could see banks across the continent lose billions of euros, companies which use these banks to hold their short-term deposits are growing increasingly concerned that they could lose their money should a bank go to the wall.

Certain large companies such as Siemens which also operate their own banks are allowed to deposit money with the ECB - the German industrial group now has between €4bn and €6bn with the bank.

WHAT NEXT?
If more institutions follow the lead of Lloyd's and Siemens and begin to remove their money from banks across Europe, those lenders will have fewer funds to fall back on in the event of a Greek default.

Such a shock would soon transmit itself across the world economy, and would see the current debt crisis transform into a global event as banks stop lending to one another.



Why does anyone bother reading this crap? It's depressing.

(V): I don't know about the interest rate problem across the pond. We have our own problems here.

(V): All sins are deadly.

Greed, jealousy, envy.. they are all related to coveting, so yes.. it's a sin.

If someones prosperity is larger than yours, and it bothers you, then you are experiencing prosperity envy. It's nothing to be ashamed of. Just be happy with what you have.

Artful Dodger: I don't have a big problem with people who recieve that assistance. Tax revenue pays people whose jobs are to funnel that money down to pay other people, until it reaches those who are payed to administer that assistance. I don't know how long or extensive the management chain is, but I'll wager that's where most of that money disappears.

(V): "Isn't greed a deadly sin?"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zi6wNGwd84g

Iamon lyme: "...the cost of exorbitant malfeasance awards."

Not malfeasance awards, I meant to say malpractice awards.

They can take their new [salty language] health care tax and [disturbing visual imagery]

I don't suppose there's any point in bringing up tort reform again. Like putting a limits on how much someone can reasonably sue doctors and hospitals. If Obama was serious about lowering health care costs he could have approached it from a different angle. Insurance has been high because costs have been high, and costs have been high because doctors and hospitals need to be able to absorb the cost of exorbitant malfeasance awards.

It would be easy enough to reform the health care system without nationalising it, but after fixing the problems that drive up costs there would be no reason to put it under government control.

With the libs it's all about control. "Reforming the system" is code for controling it. It's like when someone points and cries out "Racist!" To find the racist, just follow the finger back to the hand and up the arm of the one pointing... misdirection and outright lying in order to gain or maintain control.

Artful Dodger: BFL is right. But he's just being a mouthpiece for others in the Democrat party.

The libs don't want the wealthy to pay their fair share of taxes. If the top 1% actually did pay their fair share, the libs would go into cardiac arrest... congress might have to vote themselves a pay decrease instead of more pay increases, because fair and equally proportional taxation would mean less money going into the government piggy bank, not more.

That is obviously not what the libs mean by "fair"... it means getting more for themseves.

(V): It's a cartoonish cliche that all docs are fabulously wealthy, and why you think life and liberty is laughable is disturbing. We supposedly have a right to live and the right to be free, unless our government decides otherwise.

The pursuit of happiness means you have the right to go about your business without undue interference. The effect this has had here is people were free to invent new things and market them, but in order for that to happen they had to be free to fail as well. Not everyone fails, and not everyone that fails continues to fail.

Wealth didn't just drop into Americas lap, it developed over time because people were allowed to grow businesses and invent new things. Too much government control over peoples lives has the opposite effect. If enough of your income goes towards a government that uses your money to control every aspect of your life, then where's the motivation to do something other than the usual day to day grind?

Artful Dodger: Never occured to me that Roberts would vote to uphold it. Some people speculated about what Justice Kennedy might do, after he said it would forever change the governments relationship with the people.

Health insurance is a product, not a right. The right to life liberty and the pursuit of happiness means the right to being free to pursue those things. It doesn't mean it's the governments responsibility to make it so, it means the government should step back and let us pursue those things for ourselves.

The idea of being ruled over by a nanny state type of government is so obnoxious, it's difficult for me to comment on it without using salty language and disturbing visual imagery.

Artful Dodger: "You don't have to buy insurance if you don't want. But you'll still have to pay for it via the tax."

It's a tax? Obama said it wasn't a tax, but I don't think he consulted the dictionary when he made that statement. Fred Thompson has assured us that "We won't be taking water from your side of the bucket. We will take it from the other side." He was talking about something else but it still applies here, doesn't it?

rod03801: "Next is : We will be told what we can and can't eat."

Or what size sody pops we may purchase...

Naw, it'll never happen.

What's next? Mandatory term life insurance? What else could we be forced to pay for?

I know! State controled gasoline insurance! We have a right to affordable gas. We don't have a right to get our own oil, but that's a separate issue... that has nothing to do with gas prices.

(V): "I hear a class action is forming in the USA based on what the banks have done. Can't blame this on the government.."

It was aliens who pressured the banks into making risky loans, not the government... and who controls the aliens?

Artful Dodger: In every picture I've seen of Holder he looks so sad and put upon. I almost feel sorry for the guy.. but I think that was the point of showing him look like that.

Mz Pelosi accused Republicans of wanting to "suppress voter turnout" by trying to get Eric Holder to talk. Pelosi can rest easy now, because todays SCOTUS ruling should put concerns of voter turnout to rest.

I can't imagine the next Nov election being a repeat of the Reagan/Carter blowout, but I'll be hedging my bets on that one too. I may as well throw it all into the pot and go for broke... what have I got to lose?

Artful Dodger: "...what's the SCOTUS going to rule on Obama Care tomorrow?"

It's hard to say. I'm hoping they look to the constitution to determine if any of it is constitutional or not. Some Washington insiders are of the opinion that the constitutionality of Obama care is what the judges should be looking at. Last time I looked that actually was a part of their job description, or is their job description... I'm a bit fuzzy on the details. *cough*

Obama is either going to gloat, or make a big stink over it, that's what I predict... I'm hedging my bets.

(V): "btw.. is all this "I'm not you" really necessary? Hardly politics is it."

Sure it is. Didn't you know? Combining two opponents into one serves two purposes, it serves to distract from the issues and it makes it appear there is one less opponent. And if the side making the accusation is creating false nics and getting away with it, they can make it appear there are more of them. Jiggering numbers for the sake of creating a false consensus is nothing new in world of politics, is it?

Artful Dodger: I should be sleeping now too, but haven't had much sleep since last Thursday.. the day I emerged from your sub-consious mind and reasserted my identity.

You know what, maybe "they" are right, maybe we just don't know it. If you had a split personality, but neither you nor your other identity (me) was aware of the other one, and wouldn't even know about the other one except we just happened to meet online, and are unaware that we are both talking to the other personality, in the same body.. That kind of trailed off, didn't it? What was my point?

I want to be open minded about this, and as (V) said, how can we really be sure if something is true or not?

Artful Dodger: Oh, there you are. I don't mean the English feller, I mean.. Oh, there I am!

Yup. Tumbleweeds and duststorms. And nowhere to float my boat. Where that Engish feller scoot off to?

Artful Dodger: I think it's now officially called Climate Change... the greedy capitalists cashing in on this scam are covering their butts. If it all goes south they can claim "Hey, the climate changes all the time! Yesterday it rained, but today it's just cloudy. Tomorrow it's supposed to be sunny and warm. See? We weren't lying about anything."

"By the way, want to buy a few carbon credits? They are going for rock bottom prices. Business has been slow, so we have a huge back log of them. We need to move them out to make room for more. Prices have never been this low, but this offer won't last long. So act now and put in your order today, before we go to prison for ripping you off."

Iamon lyme: Suppress voter turnout? Is that what Republicans are trying to do? I don't think so.

They couldn't suppress voter turnout if they wanted to. With so many people out of work, and more on the way to being out of work, does Mz Pelosi really think no one is motivated to start seeing some kind of POSITIVE change?

For those of you who don't have a problem with supplying Mexican drug lords with weapons...

"Democrats argue that Issa and his GOP colleagues are using the issue to try to score political points by discrediting Holder and, by extension, the president in an election year."

"House Democratic leader Nancy Pelosi, D-California, alleged last week that Republicans were targeting Holder because he is fighting their efforts to suppress voter turnout in November."

What if those weapons had instead fallen into the hands of our allies, Mz Pelosi? Would you still try sweeping it under the rug?

Senior Editor for the New York Incontinent Times reports that readership in his paper has increased over the past 6 months. Iamon lyme, whose national origin has been questioned because of his funny sounding name, said "People appreciate a fair and ballanced approach to the news. They also appreciate the fact that the paper we use is both soft and durable."

Washington (CNN) -- A war of words continued Tuesday over the possible contempt of Congress vote against Attorney General Eric Holder later this week, with the White House citing past examples of presidents claiming executive privilege in similar disputes over documents.

The White House response followed a letter Monday night from House Oversight Committee Chairman Darrell Issa, R-California, that slammed President Barack Obama's assertion of executive privilege in the panel's probe of the botched Fast and Furious gun running sting.

With the House scheduled to vote Thursday on the contempt measure against Holder, the White House fired back against Issa with a list of past cases in which presidents asserted executive privilege for the same kinds of documents sought by Issa's committee.

White House spokesman Jay Carney told reporters Tuesday that House Republicans have made the dispute a political issue, while another spokesman, Eric Schultz, ridiculed Issa's analysis of the executive privilege claim by Obama.

Issa's panel has been seeking documents that show why the Justice Department decided to withdraw as inaccurate a February 2011 letter sent to Congress that said top officials had only recently learned about the Fast and Furious operation.

However, Holder has refused to turn over materials containing internal deliberations, and asked Obama to assert executive privilege over such documents last week.

In his letter Monday, Issa said Obama's assertion of executive privilege means that he and his most senior advisers were involved in "managing" Fast and Furious and the "fallout from it" or that the president asserted a power he knows is unjustified "for the purpose of further obstructing a congressional investigation."

"To date, the White House has steadfastly maintained that it has not had any role in advising the (Justice) Department with respect to the congressional investigation. The surprising assertion of executive privilege raised the question of whether that is still the case," Issa said in his letter.

Schultz responded that Issa's account "has as much merit as his absurd contention that Operation Fast and Furious was created in order to promote gun control."

"Our position is consistent with executive branch legal precedent for the past three decades spanning administrations of both parties, and dating back to President Reagan's Department of Justice," Schultz said. "The courts have routinely considered deliberative process privilege claims and affirmed the right of the executive branch to invoke the privilege even when White House documents are not involved."

A supporting document provided by Schultz listed five such cases, including an October 1981 assertion by Reagan involving documents describing internal deliberations inside the Department of the Interior and another by Reagan a year later involving internal Environmental Protection Agency files.

Republicans on Issa's committee approved the contempt measure against Holder for refusing to hand over all of the requested documents in the panel's investigation of the operation run by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.

The vote last week came after Obama asserted executive privilege over some documents sought by the panel. The White House move means the Department of Justice can withhold some of the documents.

Opinion: Don't be nosy about Fast and Furious



A brief history of 'Fast and Furious'

Cummings: Obama had no choiceThe ATF launched Operation Fast and Furious out of Arizona to track weapons purchases by Mexican drug cartels.

However, it lost track of more than 1,000 firearms that the agency had allowed straw buyers to carry across the border, and two of the lost weapons turned up at the scene of the 2010 killing of U.S. Border Patrol agent Brian Terry.

If the House passes the contempt measure Thursday, it would be the first time in history a sitting U.S. attorney general was cited for contempt of Congress.

"I urge you to reconsider the decision to withhold documents that would allow Congress to complete its investigation," Issa said in his letter. "I remain hopeful that the Attorney General will produce the specified documents so that we can work towards resolving this matter short of a contempt citation."

The showdown between Issa and Holder over the Fast and Furious program dates back to subpoenas issued by the House committee last year.

Issa and Republicans contend that Holder and the Justice Department are concealing details of how Operation Fast and Furious was approved and managed.

Democrats argue that Issa and his GOP colleagues are using the issue to try to score political points by discrediting Holder and, by extension, the president in an election year.

A video released Tuesday by Democrats on Issa's panel showed the chairman making past allegations of White House links to Fast and Furious, juxtaposed with Issa saying Sunday there was no evidence of a White House cover-up.

"Get the facts. Read the report," the video says in conclusion.

House Democratic leader Nancy Pelosi, D-California, alleged last week that Republicans were targeting Holder because he is fighting their efforts to suppress voter turnout in November. (ha ha ha ha ha ha ha.. ohhhhhh, oh crap.. Sorry about that. I didn't see that one coming)

Issa, however, said in his letter that the assertion of executive privilege "raises more questions than it answers."

The letter provided details of a June 19 meeting between Issa and Holder on the eve of the committee's partisan vote on the contempt measure.

Issa said Holder wanted to "buy peace" on the matter.

"He indicated a willingness to produce the 'fair compilation' of post-February 4th documents. He told me that he would provide the 'fair compilation' of documents on three conditions: (1) that I permanently cancel the contempt vote; (2) that I agree the department was in full compliance with the committee's subpoenas, and; (3) that I accept the 'fair compilation,' sight unseen," Issa said in the letter, calling Holder's conditions "unacceptable."

"The attorney general's conditional offer of a 'fair compilation' of a subset of documents covered by the subpoena, and your assertion of executive privilege, in no way substitute for the fact that the Justice Department is still grossly deficient in its compliance with the committee's subpoena," Issa's letter said. "By the department's own admission, it has withheld more than 130,000 pages of responsive documents."

Issa also stressed the importance of forging a settlement rather than pursuing contempt of Congress proceedings, and asked the White House for answers to questions about the executive privilege assertion.

"To what extent were you or your most senior advisers involved in Operation Fast and Furious and the fallout from it, including the false February 4, 2011 letter provided by the attorney general to the committee?" Issa's letter said. "Please also identify any communications, meetings, and teleconferences between the White House and the Justice Department between February 4, 2011 and June 18, 2012, the day before the Attorney General requested that you assert executive privilege."

(V): "Though it is a common phrase!!"

Right, common to you and one other person here. From the time I was a teenager, I can count the number of times I've been accused of "nicking" on one hand. A failing grade on a paper (from a bone head teacher) in 8th grade English class, a friend in high school asking "Where did you read that?", and you. And a few others not worth mentioning, no need to involve the other hand.

I couldn't prove I didn't cheat on a paper in the '60s, but now there is google.. wish we had it then. So nick the web all you want, but next time google something if you think I don't have the brains to figure out this stuff for myself.

Artful Dodger: There are more of them?

I am on lyme: Come Watson, we must hurry. I've informed Lord Bloatington of our arrival, and I wager the scandalous Lady Butterbottom will be there as well.

(V): "...it just looked almost exactly like something I read a few months back."

That's odd. Jungle Burger said almost the exact same thing a few pages back.

"...I thought I'd heard that saying before from somewhere else. :)"

(V): No, there's nothing wrong with using web based info. That's not my point. I anticipated someone telling me there are more than three dimensions. But the word 'dimension' has come to mean more than what it used to mean. I don't look at time or space as being 'objects', so I was obviously not talking about that. Nor was I refering to the multi-dimensions theorized to exist in String theory. But if you want to be technical about it, then yes, both time and space can be seen as dimensions. Since an atom is almost entirely made up of empty space, then it would have to be included in the definition of what a dimension is.

No one consulted me when they decided to expand on the word 'dimension'. I told them maybe they should try using other words, to avoid confusion, but did they listen? Nooooooo!

(V): Subject: Re: Time isn't a physical dimension, and I didn't nic anything off the web.

"Isn't it? The web (I just checked to be sure) states...

"Time is one of the seven fundamental physical quantities in the International System of Units"

And that tells you I've been nicking stuff off the web? Good work, Sherlock. You've solved another mystery.

JungleBurger: You don't remember? Your post was deleted, so it only looks like I'm responding to nothing.

(V): That bit about aliens that I go on and on about... you don't think I'm serious about that, do you? And yet, there are conspiracy theorists here who apparently think AD and I are the same person. Art and I joke about it, but let's face it, they belong to that group of people who really do get their jollies from speculating about such things.

If you spent less time incorporating other peoples opinions in with your own, you wouldn't need to worry over whether or not someone else is nicking stuff off the web.

And this business of we don't know if something is right or wrong, or we've at least proven where something can't be found but that doesn't prove it doesn't exist, that kind of thinking really is the stuff that fortune cookie proverbs are made of.

(V): You can tell God all about what God is all about when you see Him. As for Christians, I don't pay much attention to the ones who share your beliefs in what/who God is or isn't. I don't speculate much on who or what you are. Just because I see your written word here doesn't mean much to me either.. does it prove that you exist?

(V): Time isn't a physical dimension, and I didn't nic anything off the web. It's just common sense, or is that something else you don't believe in?

Nope, false alarm. The higgs has not been found. "close to discovering" and "may soon be found" doesn't mean a thing.

I wish credible scientists would stop talking to anyone who is willing to interview them. Do they really want their stories showing up in the same rags that deny aliens are among us?

Maybe it's hard to find the Higgs Boson particle because it moves too fast and furiously..

Wait, I just saw a heading on Google that says higgs boson found... ?

(V): "No, I not going to argue with the word wrong, but I will point out that sometimes... we can't just know if something is wrong. Like the current model of how matter is made up and through the likes of the Higgs particle we can exist."

How does saying "sometimes... we can't just know if something is wrong" disprove what I said about logic?

A lot of theorists have spent years looking for the Higgs particle. If it can be proven to not exist, there are going to be a lot of very unhappy physicists seen jumping out of second story windows.

Bernice: Some of mine were deleted last night, and for good reason. I tried to warn Bawana, but I think he may have had a snootful last night, because I woke up with his hangover.. thanks a lot, AD!!!

Artful Dodger: I haven't done much of a search of past messages here, so I don't know how much has been said about the Fast and Furious fiasco. So far the only people I've seen commenting on it are you and me. If it was the only topic allowed on this board, this place would be like a ghost town. Where did all the free thinking and open minded people scoot off to? They are always around when the subject suits them...

oops, I think I just answered my own question.