Tuesday: Bull Pucky. You don't even watch Beck. And I DO. This statement is a lie. So there.

Tuesday: That may be your experience but it's not mine.

Artful Dodger:  Your constant farts here really "crack" me up.

Ferris Bueller: To me that is the utmost of compliments.

Tuesday:  #10 on Roger Ebert's list, his op-ed piece, seems to allude to something important here.  It has been 10 years and no decision has been made about how the victims should be honored in the space of the Twin Towers.  There have been endless political debates, designs, etc about what should be done here.  There is no space to collectively commemorate the victims of this horrible act.  I think if such a place existed, the intensity of the debate over the mosque would have been lessened, and calmer heads might have prevailed.

Ferris Bueller:

> It has been 10 years and no decision has been made about how the victims should be honored in the space of the Twin Towers.

I think the real problem is that the Towers sat on one of the choicest pieces of real estate in the world. There were those who expected that the site would be rebuilt with even bigger towers for bankers to make more money. Now they see a memorial site and there is no profit in that.

I think that this is an instance where racism has reared its ugly head behind a mask called "the United States is a Christian nation." It is like saying "X is an Islamic nation and now these Christians want to build a church here." It is all about extremism and prejudice.

I think that the greatest memorial the world could build there is a monument against war. If a lesson should have been learned it is that war and violence beget war and violence. In 2014 we will celebrate 100 years since the start of WW I, what was called "the war to end all wars". I think a memorial commemorating WW I and the tragedy of 911 would be the most appropriate thing. 911 is testament to how the lessons of WW I were never learned. A memorial against war could at least show that some of the lessons have been learned.

Ferris Bueller: Many citizens of other countries other than the USA died on 9/11 also.I wonder if any international contributions have been discussed

Jim Dandy:  Good point.

Ferris Bueller: BS and rubbish. Wake up people. um, it was ISLAMIC terrorists - MUSLIMS - that perpetrated this horrific act. They did this in the name of their god. And, this is par for the course with these extremist Muslims. It's not an isolated case but terrorist act in a long line of terrorist actions perpetuated by these extremest Muslims.

And what were the main-stream Muslims saying and doing in the aftermath of the 911 attacks?

Nothing.

YOu never make a solid argument. You just produce blather that is meaningless. What the hell does "ratcheting up the rhetoric" really mean? Can you spell it out or are you always going to hide behind comments devoid of substance and argument? I like to see you ONCE back up your position with a well-reasoned argument supported with SOME EVIDENCE. Are you capable of that?

Artful Dodger: You are aware that "their god" is also the Christian and Jewish GOD, are you?

Jim Dandy: Impossible

Vikings: mohammad is their prophet, not their "god"

Jim Dandy: Muslim faith requires acts to get to heaven to live in sin where as in the christian faith you get to heaven by grace not by acts to live in a perfect place (no sin). Therefore, they cannot be the same god

Vikings: check it out, you'll be surprised

Jim Dandy: I have and considering the violent nature of the muslim faith going back to and including the time of mohamad (who was himself a terrorist) I'm not sup prized one bit

Jim Dandy: I've checked it out. You are wrong. clearly wrong. I doubt seriously that you have investigated this seriously. Clearly the Muslim god is NOT the same as the Christian God. But make your case for your claim.

Artful Dodger: In late 2003 President Bush said, in response to a reporter’s question, that he believed Muslims and Christians "worship the same God." .....................are you calling GW ignorant?

Jim Dandy: Of course you are right, Jews, Christians, Muslims all worship the same God, along with mostly the same prophets, Abraham had 3 wives, etc... organized religion..gotta love it nothing but blood and mass murder thru out the ages .

GTCharlie: not according to the muslim faith

Allah's Messenger called Ali [and said]: “Proceed on and do not look about until Allah grants you victory,” and Ali went a bit and then halted and did not look about and then said in a loud voice: “Allah's Messenger, on what issue should I fight with the people?” Thereupon he (the Prophet) said: ”Fight with them until they bear testimony to the fact that there is no god but Allah and Muhammad is his Messenger…” (Sahih Muslim 5917)

Vikings: Allah is jut Arabic for God, but weasel words and twisting thru out the years allows anyone to justify anything

GTCharlie: well that is your opinion as much of religious debate is, however the bible has the same claim



1. "For this reason a man shall leave his father and his mother, and be joined to his wife; and they shall become one [echad] flesh. " Genesis 2:24
2. "there is no one like Yahweh our God." Exodus 8:10
3. "Yahweh, He is God; there is no other besides Him." Deuteronomy 4:35
4. "Yahweh, He is God in heaven above and on the earth below; there is no other." Deuteronomy 4:39
5. "See now that I, I am He, And there is no god besides Me" Deuteronomy 32:39
6. "Hear, O Israel! Yahweh is our God, Yahweh is one [echad]!" Deuteronomy 6:4
7. "You are great, O Lord God; for there is none like You, and there is no God besides You" 2 Samuel 7:22
8. "For who is God, besides Yahweh? And who is a rock, besides our God?" 2 Samuel 22:32
9. "Yahweh is God; there is no one else." 1 Kings 8:60
10. "You are the God, You alone [bad], of all the kingdoms of the earth." 2 Kings 19:15
11. "O Lord, there is none like You, nor is there any God besides You" 1 Chronicles 17:20
12. "You alone [bad] are Yahweh." Nehemiah 9:6
13. "For who is God, but Yahweh? And who is a rock, except our God" Psalm 18:31
14. "You alone [bad], Lord, are God." Isaiah 37:20
15. "Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me." Isaiah 43:10
16. "‘I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me." Isaiah 44:6
17. "Is there any God besides Me, Or is there any other Rock? I know of none." Isaiah 44:8
18. "I am Yahweh, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God." Isaiah 45:5
19. "Surely, God is with you, and there is none else, No other God." Isaiah 45:14
20. "I am Yahweh, and there is none else." Isaiah 45:18
21. "Is it not I, Yahweh? And there is no other God besides Me, A righteous God and a Savior; There is none except Me." Isaiah 45:21
22. "I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me" Isaiah 46:9
23. "And Yahweh will be king over all the earth; in that day Yahweh will be the only one [echad], and His name the only one[echad]." Zechariah 14:9
24. "No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one [hen] and love the other, or he will be devoted to one [hen] and despise the other. You cannot serve God and wealth." Matthew 6:24
25. "For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one
26. [hen] flesh"? " Matthew 19:5 "But do not be called Rabbi; for One [hen] is your Teacher, and you are all brothers." Matthew 23:8
27. "Do not be called leaders; for One [hen] is your Leader, that is, Christ." Matthew 23:10
28. ""The foremost is, ‘Hear, O Israel! The Lord our God is one [hen] Lord; " Mark 12:29
29. "you do not seek the glory that is from the one and only [monos] God?" John 5:44
30. "I and the Father are one
31. [hen]." John 10:30 "This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only [monos] true God" John 17:3
32. "The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one [hen], just as We are one [hen]" John 17:22
33. "since indeed God is one [hen]" Romans 3:30
34. "to the only [monos] wise God, Amen." Romans 16:27
35. "there is no God but one [hen]" 1 Corinthians 8:4
36. "yet for us there is but one [hen] God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one [hen] Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him." 1 Corinthians 8:6
37. "Now a mediator is not for one party only; whereas God is only one [hen]." Galatians 3:20
38. "There is one [hen] body and one [hen] Spirit, one [hen] hope, one [hen] Lord, one [hen] faith, one [hen] baptism, one [hen] God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all." Ephesians 4:4-6
39. "Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only [monos] God" 1 Timothy 1:17
40. "which He will bring about at the proper time—He who is the blessed and only [monos] Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords, who alone [monos] possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen." 1 Timothy 6:16
41. "For there is one [hen] God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus," 1 Timothy 2:5
42. "You believe that God is one [hen]. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder." James 2:19
43. "For certain persons deny our only [monos] Master and Lord, Jesus Christ." Jude 4
44. "the only [monos] God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen." Jude 25

believe what you want

Vikings: As per usual, Jules doesn't know what he's talking about with respect to the god of Islam. It's much wiser to take the word of someone whose been on the inside of the Islamic faith. Walid Shoebat is an expert on Islam having been raised as a Muslim and was an active PLO terrorist. I've heard him speak twice and he's powerful. He explains for one that the god of Islam is NOT the same as the God of the Bible. I'll take his word over someone who really doesn't have a full understanding.

Jesus is the Christian God. Jesus is God in the flesh. Jesus and God are ONE. In Islam, Jesus is denied as God and called only a prophet. Islam god is one. The Christian God is triune. Allah was worshiped before Muhammad and was one of the hundreds of gods that Arabs worshiped. He was the chief God and Muhammad simply took that god and made him the only god of Islam. Allah was a pagan god before Islam was ever created. Cries to the contrary are cries against historical facts. And as we all know, facts are stubborn things.

Artful Dodger: There are a lot of Christian teachings that say that Jesus was a son of God, aren't there? These non-trinitarian beliefs don't view Jesus as the God himself. So this makes your argument a bit weaker. But I personally do agree that the Christian God and the Islamic God are two different entities. Wikipedia says that Islam teaches that God as referenced in the Qur'an is the only god and the same God worshipped by members of other Abrahamic religions such as Christianity and Judaism. and backs this claim by the following quote from the Qur'an (in three different translations):

“YUSUFALI: And dispute ye not with the People of the Book, except with means better (than mere disputation), unless it be with those of them who inflict wrong (and injury): but say, "We believe in the revelation which has come down to us and in that which came down to you; Our Allah and your Allah is one; and it is to Him we bow (in Islam)."
PICKTHAL: And argue not with the People of the Scripture unless it be in (a way) that is better, save with such of them as do wrong; and say: We believe in that which hath been revealed unto us and revealed unto you; our Allah and your Allah is One, and unto Him we surrender.
SHAKIR: And do not dispute with the followers of the Book except by what is best, except those of them who act unjustly, and say: We believe in that which has been revealed to us and revealed to you, and our Allah and your Allah is One, and to Him do we submit.”

However, I don't think it can be inferred from the above that the God is Allah and Allah is God.

In simple words, the two religions are too different to believe that they worship the same superpowerful being.

Pedro Martínez: Well put. As for the Trinitarian view, that is the orthodox view and those that claim Jesus is not also God are outside of orthodoxy. Jesus asked, "Who do you say that I am." and the answer, which Jesus applauded was, "You are the Messiah, the Son of the Most High God." Not a son, but The Son. Many other things Jesus said indicated (at least to the Jews at the time) that He was equal with God, fully ONE with God. He was worshiped and Jesus accepted that worship. My view is that it is NOT a Christian teaching that Jesus was a son of God. Rather, it is a view put out by people who "claim" to be Christians but are well outside accepted orthodoxy. In Christianity, Jesus matters. And who Christians believe HE is matters completely. A wrong view of Jesus ultimately means that the Jesus you follow is a creation of your own and that would be viewed as a false Jesus. It mattered to Jesus who people claimed He was. He Himself claimed to be God so if Jesus wasn't really God, he is as Lewis said, on the level of a poached egg.

"I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: I’m ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don’t accept his claim to be God. That is the one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic — on the level with the man who says he is a poached egg — or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God, or else a madman or something worse. You can shut him up for a fool, you can spit at him and kill him as a demon or you can fall at his feet and call him Lord and God, but let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about his being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to."
— C.S. Lewis (Mere Christianity)

Artful Dodger: Walid Shoebat seems to be a bit of a liar... made a bit of money out of it since coming to America. If Allah is false due to worship before.. then so is our Christian God as he was one of many before Moses converted the Israelites.

"Jesus is denied as God and called only a prophet. Islam god is one. The Christian God is triune."

.... The Christian God is not triune.. that is a doctrine and is not recognised throughout Christianity as being true. Allah has many names to describe him, just as G-D does in the Jewish faith. The name Allah is used by some Jewish faiths and Christian faiths as the name for God.

so you are wrong again

And Jesus is not God.. he is the the leader of the Christian sonship. God and human at the same time just as we all are. Strictly speaking.. we are all God.

(V): Making money isn't a crime, Walid Shoebat is comfort food in the buffet of propoganda placed before us

Jim Dandy: And you know this how?

Artful Dodger: cuz I've watched him on God's news network many times

Jim Dandy: And that makes you an expert.

(V): Forget about names. It doesn't matter what the Arabic word for “God” is. Take bread as an analogy. Go to a store in the UK and ask for a loaf of bread. Then do the same thing in the Czech Republic (using the Czech word for bread) and see what you get. Two different things.

GTCharlie: YOu need to get on the right page here. They are not the same God. Just because Allah is Arabic for "God" doesn't mean that they are actually worshiping the same Deity. YOu have made a fatal error in logic.

Allah = God in Arabic.
Muslims worship Allah
Therefore Muslims worship the same God as do the Christians and Jews.

Artful Dodger: are you saying that muslims worship an infidel?

Vikings: oh yeah

Vikings: Rubbish. Judaism/Christianity & Islam all are based on interpretation of the same God and his word to us.

Jim Dandy: um, I'm aware that it is NOT the same. You are mistaken. Very mistaken.

Artful Dodger:  The operative word is EXTREMISTS.