and by the way Judges are not elected into office only out in smaller jurisdictions

(V): Being elected has nothing to do with doing the right thing, unless you now have to agree with everything Bush did since he was elected, Gates was stolen from by the U.S. government and individual states governments

Czuch:  Good piint!

(V): your last post... it has nothing in it about trickle down economics?

All i know, is that every liberal I ever talk to, will tell me that trickle down economics doesnt work, when I argue that you cant keep taking from the big dogs because without the big dogs there are no little dogs... but now, for some odd reason, it is the liberals telling us how we have to keep the big dogs alive because the little dogs rely on them???

Czuch: You liberal types...... stereotyping..... read my last post

(V): Funny thing is that it is you liberal types who say you dont believe in trickle down economics, except when it is turned upside down... I mean really???? You want to take from the rich to give to the poor, and then when the rich start to fail, then you want to bail them out

Czuch: If it was one related business.. but it never is. That point you keep missing.

Czuch: No I'm not. And as for greater heights then ever imagined.....

Sorry, the sci-fi writers imagined it way before it happened, and in retrospect... No country has beaten the power of the former British Empire and is unlikely due to our belief in democracy ever will.

"The lack of hope was obviously not devastating...."

At the time it was. And that devastation despite arguments about policies back then is agreed by all.

(V): You think it's all about big people and forget the little people who big business is reliant on


Again, you are wrong... I didnt forget about all those people, that just the way life goes sometimes. There might be a factory so I decide to build a hot dog stand to take advantage of their lunch breaks.... its all good, but I shouldnt get some government guarantee that this factory never goes out of business, just to protect my small venture?

(V): That lack of hope (everyone who disagrees about the cause and effect and cure) all agree was devastating.


Again, you assume too much and miss the whole point

The lack of hope was obviously not devastating, since we recovered and grew to even greater heights than ever imagined!

Vikings: SOME PEOPLE want them to fail, not everyone. In some businesses (which some people can't see) is the damage that uncontrolled failure can cause. One of the things everyone can agree regarding the great depression was the lack of hope that some people think is acceptable today! That lack of hope (everyone who disagrees about the cause and effect and cure) all agree was devastating.

"without further stealing from the working people of their hard earned money, Bill Gates has already been stolen from"

... Stealing?? Are not our government's elected? Through democracy!! We are not talking expenses here of MP's, but policy.

As for Bill stealing... we all know if we buy a PC we are buying windows, but the EU (government) has outlawed Bill's monopoly, yet you don't want this government and would allow Bill and the likes of Intel to cheat the market and us of 'free competition'??

What do you want?

Czuch: And of Ethel who worked behind the till in the local Branch in 'X'? Or Mrs Jones the cleaner? What about Miss Peabody who works in the cafe reliant on car workers for 75% of it's trade??

You think it's all about big people and forget the little people who big business is reliant on and as such are not at fault for big businesses going under.... they are just working for a living!!

Pink Floyd's Final Cut first track comes to mind.

(V): You are missing the point, altho it wasn't stated, If Bill Gates prospers, good for him, he did it in the free market, what companies people want to starve so so so so much (and it isn't that people want but rather know will happen) are the ones that the government has interfered and supplemented like the car companies and the large banks, those are already socialized and cannot make it as such without further stealing from the working people of their hard earned money, Bill Gates has already been stolen from

(V): Sounds socialist even communist in regard to reasons for communist/socialist states. But such is that such an attitude is against your free market model you idolise. No more Bill Gates, no more multi-internationals ruling the market.....


Not really.... I am not against the free market at all.... it is the free market that would let failing companies fail, if Bill gates cant make it, well then too bad for him. But I dont want to force him to make less, or "force" him to stay in business (make it) with government. Thats what socialism does... it puts government supported limits on the highs and the lows, which most liberals subscribe to, they just want everyone to be middle class, they dont like to see anyone fail, and they will take from those who succeed to keep that from happening!

I am not saying that is all bad.... and mostly their hearts are in the right place, I just believe that in the long run, that is not the model i would want us to subscribe to... I believe it makes us all too homogeneous, too generic, and that is not good for growth and productivity and creativity... it creates laziness and complacency and in the end a blah, ordinary, and completely mundane country

Czuch: The great depression and the NRA have little relation to current events. The depression back then was affected by the Gold Standard being behind currency evaluation. There was a universal lack of confidence back then, something we don't have now, and that since the great depression we've had systems in place to take care of those directly affected instead of 'soup kitchens'.... Also there is no 'dustbowl'. A lesson in agriculture that will never be repeated.

The NRA is not the same within reasonable comparison, as your current admin's policies have some significant differences which make the recovery program similar but different.

"want the big fishes to starve so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so much....."

Sounds socialist even communist in regard to reasons for communist/socialist states. But such is that such an attitude is against your free market model you idolise. No more Bill Gates, no more multi-internationals ruling the market..... If you think it through then in the long term to prevent re-occurrences then a cap on how much you can earn would have to be set.

.... More government, more interference but possibly (according to the likes of Karl Marx) would make the occurrence of depression/recession cycles (as they are natural to the free market) further apart, which in some respects lead to more unpredictability, leading to less risk taking.....

Businesses and people would just have to be more sensible, less risk taking naturally but at a cost of a less free market and codes of ethics being set which all significant businesses would have to live by.

.... A socialist free market.

Czuch: Yes, the big fishes and welfare abusers are the same, undeserved priviledges.

gogul: want the big fishes to starve so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so much. Well high politics, justice and the big corporations, soon as it implodes this will be a real relief for the people (maybe not every single individual, but who cares, lazy times will be over then, GREAT!)

Übergeek 바둑이: The solution is let companies fail and let the economy take the hit and start over.



Whats wrong with that idea??? Many economists believe we would have come out of the great depression faster and stronger had we simply done that, and my opinion is that is what we should have done this time as well

Übergeek 바둑이: The solution is let companies fail and let the economy take the hit and start over. Saving banks, car companies and monopolies wil not help working class people or small businesses, and it is from those segments of the economy that the recovery will come in the end.

Yes, I agree to that. For banks, the sentence "too big to fail" comes from people who are trying to protect their undeserved priviledges. To me it seems too obvious that the companies known for having cheated their balance and customers for years have to get cut off of the system, it would allow fair companies to take over the businesses. Problem seems to be that the justice isn't independent if it comes to the big fishes. I want the big fishes to starve so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so much. Well high politics, justice and the big corporations, soon as it implodes this will be a real relief for the people (maybe not every single individual, but who cares, lazy times will be over then, GREAT!)

Tuesday:  I see dead people.. EEEewwwwwWW

Tuesday: That or they've got some kinda of stasis.

Tuesday: Stalin I think had a bigger memorial... I'm not sure about other leaders of Russia, or as it became the USSR.

You can find it by doing a search by the bill number, SB-2099. http://ron.dotson.net/guns/sb2099.htm

As it is stated on the top of the board CURRENT NEWS and politics, therefore as much as I am bored with this topic, it is a valid one.

Please keep all baggage from the flame fellowships off of this board,

Tuesday: the point im making if you honor one you have to honor them all and quite simply there isnt enough days in the year to do so..lol

Tuesday: but aren't there much more worthy ppl who deserve to be honored for doing hard honest work
not just bbeinga pop star
dodoesntake sense to me why hohonorim at all

Übergeek 바둑이: I agree that Bush carries a huge part of the blame for this mess. But he's not alone. Many other Republicans are to blame as are many Democrats. Anytime there improprieties in elections it's wrong. I think many politicians are basically crooked. And I'll admit, I can't stand most democrats. But I can recognize and idiot Republican when I see one.

Übergeek 바둑이: Yes it will, so many small businesses (such as restaurants and related dependant businesses) will fail if the bigger ones fall.

And if the same happens in USA as over here, then banks, etc will pick up and the related Gov's will make a profit in the long term.

Artful Dodger:

In response to some comments:

> I don't trust him. I think all this stimulus crap will bite the US in the butt.

Entirely agree with this. Initially this stimulus package and the baiolout for the banks was put forth by the Bush administration at the end of 2008. As I recall MacCain and Obama interrupted their campaigns for one entire weekend to agree on how the stimulus package would continue after the election and both candidates pledged to release the 800 billion regardless of who was elected in the end. I think it is unsustainable. Releasing more money into the economy will fuel inflation and the money released so far has done nothing to slow down the rise in unemployment. More stimulus means a bigger deficit, and more unemployment means less tax revenues. The administration is a catch-22 situation. The solution is let companies fail and let the economy take the hit and start over. Saving banks, car companies and monopolies wil not help working class people or small businesses, and it is from those segments of the economy that the recovery will come in the end.

> One way to cripple America is to bankrupt her. That's where this huge
> spending President is heading.

The runaway spending started in 2001 when George W. Bush saw the surplus he inherited from Clinton as a license to print money. Then 9-11 happened and the was in Afghanistan and Iraq decimated the accounts balance. Both Bush and Obama have budgeted as if the 2000 surplus was still there. They have let Ben Bernanke talk them into giving so much money to banks that now tax payers are literally paying taxes to support banks that gouge their savings in the end.

George W. Bush is to blame for this. This situation was created before the election. I think Obama is making a serious mistake by playing the bailout game. If banks (car companies and others) fail to pay back the bailout money, then taxpayers will take the brunt of it.

> As to Al Frankin: ... The democrats disputed legitimate votes and the courts
> sided with the democrats.

Is it just me or does this sound a lot like the 2000 election? Back in 2000 the Democrats asked for a recount and lost. Now the Republicans asked for a recount and lost. So far the Reblicans are winning. They got a president, while the Democrats got just a senator!

Artful Dodger: .... and your economic basis for this is?

Sometimes you have to spend to save.

(V): You can't spend trillions of dollars and get out of debt. And no business should be bailed out. Not the business of the government. Not the way the market works. You can't manage the market in that way. You'll see. GM is bankrupt anyway. So it didn't help. The government will drive things even worse in the auto market. Idiots. They know nothing of running car companies.

Artful Dodger: Is he? Then most countries in the western world are in trouble as most are following the same path in some form.

(V): You don't solve reckless spending with even more reckless spending. Obama is reckless.

Artful Dodger: Yes... I think everyone agrees with that. That's why this could cause alot of good.... as stated!!

"Lots of people have poor childhoods but that's no excuse to do some of the things MJ did."

It's part of the cycle.. that's what I'm hoping such a big death in terms of publicity will change. Quite frankly if everyone just moans about the death and the hype then that will do no good.

And Bush already bankrupted America. Also he wanted more BiG BROTHER to monitor everything Americans did in the name of homeland security.

So.... everything you are accusing the democrats of doing, the republicans have done already!!

I don't trust him. I think all this stimulus crap will bite the US in the butt. It was declared an emergency in the beginning (to ward off the dreaded 9% unemployment that was sure to come if they didn't pass it) but now we are in double digits and they are talking about another stimulus package. Nice.

One way to cripple America is to bankrupt her. That's where this huge spending President is heading. And don't be mistaken, his honeymoon days are over. The economy is worsening. Taxpayers will see increases in their taxes and deductions are already being eliminated. When you want to sell your home in the future you'll have to jump through a bunch of Federal regulations. Big Brother is here.

As to Al Frankin: All the votes were NOT counted. Read the news. That's at the heart of the issue. The democrats disputed legitimate votes and the courts sided with the democrats. Never mind that in some districts there was double counting etc. The same sort of nonsense happened here in this State. Minnesota has now elected an ex wrestler and a failed radio host.

The Democrats have a little more than three years to mess this country up and then there will be a change in leadership. In two years the democratic majority will not stand. People are already tired of their nonsense. watch and see. Obama is losing favor in strongholds. In one stronghold he's down 11%. That's a big deal.

(V): Frankly, who cares? MJ is dead. He's still dead. He's no model for anything. He was a musician and that's that. His personal life is not something to hold up as a model. He was a drug addict. He engaged in illegal activities. He was an abuser of drug and that's what killed him. And I'm growing tired of the victim attitude. Lots of people have poor childhoods but that's no excuse to do some of the things MJ did. Let's face it, if he were a old white unemployed bum, fat and unshaven, who just happened to have a similar unpleasant upbringing, and he was "sharing his bed" with kiddies (as a bridge to his childhood or whatever) you'd sing a different tune. So would the world.

Too many people made excuses for MJ in his life. That's why he's dead. Now they are making excuses in his death. Beyond stupid.

I loved his music. Ben is a favorite. I'm sorry he's dead. But facts are facts. He died because he abused drugs. And he paid a unscrupulous doctor to acquire the drugs illegally and administer them illegally. In that respect, MJ was a criminal. But the left will not allow this. Even though they went after Rush Limbaugh for his addiction to pills, and they wanted his head, MJ does worse and the left has only platitudes.

gogul: the whole Western world is guilty of selling trash to Africa in one form or another
and we carry on doing so sadly because they are not in a strong enough postition to do anything about

most of the Western worlds unwanted computers are send to India and China to be broken up in horrilbe conditions

we know it shouldnt be happening and there are laws in place to stop it
BUT it still is happening

Artful Dodger: It depends on how people use the facts of his life.

gogul: "Allright. That's nuts. Mj's life is a failure."


Very much so. You're about the only one making any sense of the MJ hysteria.

gogul: "michael Jacksons music and life is politically irrelevant. A few interesting people died lately, how about McNamara. Michael Jackson is taking too much space on this board."

Gee, you and I agree!

gogul: ?? Brake?!?!?!?

..... undo not destroy I feel is a more appropriate phrase.

when you consider the Western world is bleeding the earth dry

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/8143566.stm

Tuesday: meow :-)