Ferris Bueller: They also do it at less cost than the US

Yes they do... because they have us to bear the brunt of their costs for them!!!


Look at Canada.... they have cheaper pills than we do, right? But who bears the cost of making those pills.... the cost of the research and the regulatory hurdles and trials and manufacturing??? Thats right, the US does

So our pharmaceuticals dont simply have to recover the actual cost to make a pill, they have to recover the total cost to make and develope a pill... but Canada will only pay them a fair profit for the cost to manufacture the pill, so the burden to pay the cost for the development of that pill goes to you know who, the American public

Now, make the US another Canada, and who are we gonna screw over to research and develope these cheap medicines for us????? Mexico maybe????

The only way the rest of the world gets away with socialism, is because the US does the brunt of their work for them, but once we are all socialists, then who will be left to burden the load????


Sorry, gotta run, later I will explain to you how thinking that health care is a "right" makes you an idiot

Czuch: Ya kidding me.... You are not serious on that are you??

Czuch:  Well, I'd rather be called an "idiot" than behave like an insensitive "moron".

Ferris Bueller: Well, I'd rather be called an "idiot" than behave like an insensitive "moron".

Sorry, I can be insensitive, but liberals have cornered the market on sensitivty anyway, I am not sure that sensitivty is a requirement of government, at least not my government.....


but I was not calling you a moron, personally, but simply anyone who believes people can have inalienable rights to goods and services, IE health care, ones sensitive side may wish this could be the case, but it is just not possible

Czuch: Ohhhhhh yes it is. And at less cost then your current system, and with less fraud then your current system.


"at least not my government....."

And since when have you run America? I've never heard of President Czuch!! Also, since your constitution says for the people, then the government has to listen to the people... which requires a certain amount of sensitivity.

... If you feel you don't need healthcare.. go without.

(V): "at least not my government.....

When I say this, what I mean is not the government I envision....


Ohhhhhh yes it is. And at less cost then your current system, and with less fraud then your current system.


You still havent answered my hypothetical question.... what if you have no doctors, can your government force someone to become a doctor? How can you grant someone a right, when you cannot ensure it can always be provided????

Again, it is not possible to have a "right" to goods or services, since no government can possibly guarantee to provide those goods or services

Czuch: In your hypothetical situation, no-one can guarantee someone will become a doctor, but many feel it is a vocation being a healer. But since many people want to be doctors, nurses, etc... your hypothetical is kinda silly. There have been healers of sorts since the beginning of recorded time.... somehow I don't think that is suddenly going to change.

And I think an answer deserves an answer... why do you want a system that is abused by fraud to the cost of billions of dollars? Why do you say such abuse by private individuals and companies is a good thing?

And by your hypothetical.. no private company can guarantee health care either, or any service. well... they don't anyway!!

(V): All I was saying is that people around here are carrying sign in protest of our health care that read "health care is a right" and it cannot be a right and there is no way a government can give that guarantee

Just because you think something is silly does not make it impossible...


and to answer your question.... why do you want a system that is abused by fraud to the cost of billions of dollars?


I just happen to believe that the government is far more fraudulent and full of abuses than most private industry's. I think we can fix what needs fixing, but we dont need to throw the baby out with the bath water

Czuch: Really?? Since when? I mean, isn't it true that many USA private individuals have been storing their 'cream' in offshore accounts to avoid taxes.. Over 100 big building companies over here have been caught fiddling the books. ... Madoff, etc, etc, etc. Believing something does not make it true.

And yes.. it is silly to presume that doctors will just dry up... unless someone invents some virus that attacks people who want to become doctors.. or.. a catastrophic event happens... but in such an event, everyone and everything has gone to the dogs as the infrastructure/economy will completely collapse..

But people will still care about people. It's hard wired into us.

(V): Well we have as many horror stories about the government spending 500 bucks for a bolt.... how about our US mail.... UPS, fed express, or the US mail? You tell me which you would first bet your money on??? The government is notorious for doing things wrong and too costly etc.... You take your government over private industry, I will continue to fight over here to keep government out of my life as much as possible!


Sorry you dont like hypotheticals, but you have to deal with them in philosophical debates

Czuch: That being one thing... I mean, you quite happily support your government re recent wars don't you?? Or has that changed??? Our Royal mail has been been pretty good, some troubles, but no way as bad as your system. Perhaps if your parties stopped arguing it could be sorted.

Oh I don't mind hypothetical, but can you name one realistic 'normal' event that would cause people to stop caring and wanting to help others? A sudden mutation in genes that cause us to become all psychotic maniacs? Some release of a nerve toxin that causes humans to stop being humans?

As I said.. caring is hard wired. That part of human nature has been documented for 1000's of years. Even Jesus commentated about Samaritans

(V): People caring is one thing... something I can agree with. But government is NOT people, government works for the people but they are not people, and they (government) shouldnt have the same responsibility (or more responsibility) than the people themselves, churches, people helping people, thats one thing, but when you rely and put all your hope and faith in your government to provide for you... well, to me that is a big mistake.

Czuch:  Last time I checked the gov't was run by people as opposed to robots.  Yes, there exists corruption & inefficiency,.  But, it can't be any worse than private insurance companies.  You raise hypotheticals about not enough Drs. practicing to take care of everyone.  Well, its already happening because Drs don't want to deal with the red tape & dictates of the PRIVATE insurance cos.  They have to hire numerous office people to deal with the filing, & they may not get paid for many months while the insurance cos. question everything..  It's significantly simpler with  Medicare & Medicaid.

Its time at least for a public option to compete w/ the greedy & inefficient private payers.  If they can't compete with gov't & cover everyone effectively, let them go out of business & leave us with a single payer.  We will still be able see your private physicians under the system as it's proposed now.

Ferris Bueller: You raise hypotheticals about not enough Drs. practicing to take care of everyone.


My point had nothing to do with not enough doctors, per se, it was just to make the point about the "health care is a right" crowd, that goods and services can never be a right, in the same sense that freedom of speech, or the right to unlawful search can.....


Its time at least for a public option to compete w/ the greedy & inefficient private payers.


Well that would be fine with me, as long as they are competing on the same playing field..... I have no confidence that the government health care will do any better than the US postal service when it comes to competing with private industry

Czuch: You don't get it do you? Our society as such relies on a certain level of health. What is called 'maximum employment' relies on health care as part of the figures. That health care is not a right directly affects the ability of the population to meet the demands of the economy. It is NOT your mail service, which by the looks is very much undercharging.

"put all your hope and faith in your government to provide for you."

Never have.. I am a natural sceptic when it comes to politicians, but those who run our NHS trusts have proven to give a damn, and kick butt as needed. Also, our NHS as a whole spent less then budgeted for last year. A surplus the trusts get to keep and invest into the system. No shareholders grabbing their piece of the pie here!!

"Well that would be fine with me, as long as they are competing on the same playing field."

It would mean that your health companies would have to get lean, it would mean that your silly fragmented insurance system gets a kick up the butt. It would mean health care companies would have to be able to offer a national service I hope.

.... And hopefully then they will stop defrauding the USA.

(V): That health care is not a right directly affects the ability of the population to meet the demands of the economy. It is NOT your mail service, which by the looks is very much undercharging.


Okay then.... If you want to make the argument that we need nationalized health care because our economy is suffering because our population is too unhealthy to maintain a productive work force... well then, make that argument. But dont try to convince me that we need it because it is some sort of fundamental government guaranteed right (not that I see our economy suffering because of a poor health care system)

...and maybe health care is not our postal system, but you need to do more than just say it wont be, for me to be convinced Why/how are they to be different???
You say our postal under charges? Based on what? I see the prices constantly going up.... to me its just the government running something more poorly than private ways... federal express and United Parcel service both make profits, and the US postal service is going bankrupt

Czuch: I did, by using the term maximum employment. I was taught it during classes in economics at the age of 14. If you studied and looked at the subject on the web, you'd understand.

Didn't I sorta say it was something we do as humans, and as such.. our governments are supposed to represent the will of the people.. doesn't it state so in your constitution?? Or did you skip that bit.

"Why/how are they to be different???"

One deals with health, one deals with post... can you see the difference??

"You say our postal under charges?"

Yes..

"and the US postal service is going bankrupt"

Well if health care frauds were gone that save $1,000,000,000

(V): Well if health care frauds were gone that save $1,000,000,000


Well, can we get rid of fraud and not go socialized at the same time?

Czuch: You tell me, you say you know better

As for the other 2 questions.. read back and study some economics. Most people who like to talk about things do so.. so other don't keep having to explain the simple things and repeat themselves.

Only one minor thing.. I called it "maximum employment", while the term seemingly used (a bit of a rusty memory on the name) is full employment.. where as it is expected that some of the population will not be in employment as a natural event.

(V): One deals with health, one deals with post... can you see the difference??


So then, in your opinion, the government is good at running some things and not so good at others?

(V): I did, by using the term maximum employment


So you are telling me that the US doesnt have "maximum employment" because our health care system is not nationalized???

Czuch: People in the US have a right to unlawful search???

Pedro Martínez: Right against....sorry

Ferris Bueller: A&E here is for those who have something wrong with them that cannot be dealt with by a GP. A&E is for emergencies. It is more cost effective to have 24/7 GP services, 24/7 medical advice and 24/7 home visit GP's.

Going to A&E for minor stuff is a waste of money and time. I heard that this is the way in America, but did not believe it, talk about jamming the bread or what!!

Ferris Bueller:  Health care is not a right.   And no one here has said it's a privileged.   I have health care because I work for it.  I put myself through school.  I paid my own way.  I made the decision to go to school, get a degree, and I worked hard to afford it.  Health care is a responsibility.  

Artful Dodger: So... who's to decide who lives and dies in your world of "not a right"??

(V): The purple dinosaur.

Artful Dodger: Barney?? He loves everyone!!

Besides.. he's in hiding after the Barney toy business... there is only so much a sane man can take.

(V):

> So... who's to decide who lives and dies in your world of "not a right"??

In Capitalism the answer is simple: MONEY DECIDES!

Übergeek 바둑이: If that is so.. then the Hippocratic oath means nothing. Centuries upon centuries of medical research by those who strove to save life thrown away for a dollar!!