Übergeek 바둑이: An excellent post... my God is better than yours..or you're not worshiping God the right way, our way is much better. or God likes us better.. he chose us.. he kinda likes you.. but he chose us because we're better.. organized religion...so much blood spilled over the ages, and still it continues

GTCharlie: More blood has been spilled with secular philosophies than with religious ideologies. It's silly to talk about religion in these ways. It's painting with too wide a brush. And when people use the word "religion" many mean something different. Without a defining of terms, people can't really be sure what is exactly being claimed.

Übergeek usually has well thought out posts but in this case, he has some problems with logic. He says the root cause of the problem is organized religion but he really hasn't defined what "problem" he's discussing. The burning of the Koran, he seems to be saying, is just a symptom of "the problem." He goes on to say simply that organized religion is this problem. But he then emphasizes the problems that arise when religious claims compete. This explains nothing. Political claims compete too. So what of that?

He states: "I am sorry to say that in most churches (or mosques, sinagogues, temples, etc.) that I have seen, people are herded like sheep, all because that sheep instinct allows them to overcome any doubts they might have about their own beliefs."

This is not an argument. It's an ad hominem. I go to church and I certainly don't get herded like a sheep. I know of no one in mainstream Christianity that behaves this way. We question our leaders, study on our own, and often disagree with minor points. When we disagree with major points, we usually leave that congregation. It happens. Some reasons are good, others not so much. But the point is that people do think for themselves far more than Ubergeek suggests. And referring to people as "sheep" is simply a way to marginalize their intelligence. It's an old trick.

Next Ubergeek over generalizes. It's "most people" this and "most people" that. Sure, he's done a study on this.
" Then most people believe blindly. Most people don't realize that the religion they follow might have been born centuries ago, but its current beliefs might have sprung only in the last 300 years because most current organized religious sects did not exist before the Renaissance and the Enlightenment."

This argument is old and boring.

"Everyone is trying to impose human limitations on an infinite God,"

Everyone? hmmm, well I know of no one in my circle of friends that does that. I've never EVER sat in on any teaching that did this. This is pure nonsense.

" and the belief that a single book can contain EVERYTHING that there is to know about God"

I know of NO ONE that believes this regarding the Bible. It's NOT taught. We know as Believers that what we can know about God is very limited. But that the Bible is HIS revealed word to us and it tells us "something" about the nature of God. But EVERYTHING? We never have believed that.

The rest of Ubergeeks post is an over mischaracterization of what is believed by orthodox Christianity. It's typical uninformed babble and has no useful place in an informed discussion. His last few sentences show rather well his antagonism toward religion in general and his negative view of those who regard FAITH as something real and true.

"And at the root cause of human stupidity sits organized religion and the sheep that follow it. They need their opium and they go and get their dose every weekend."

snobbery at its best

Artful Dodger: Oh yes it is.

Artful Dodger: people are like sheep...they vote rep or dem..they believe most anything their told in church.
you say you go to church,thats fine, but did you see Christ rise from the dead, or do you blindly just believe?
what do you feel is reason enough to believe anything that is written in either the old or new testament?
did you know any of these people,or do you blindly just believe?

in politics...you are hard on the right, yet most everyone in politics are under the influence of "big business",both on the right and the left...so by choosing a side, you become part of the flock.
yes...people are like sheep.

Bwild: I actually agree that in some respects, we people are a bit like sheep. Clearly some more than others. And I don't see this as a bad thing. Jesus called the people his sheep. But what he meant (and what I mean) is that they need a Shepherd - someone to watch over them. While some of us take pride in our independent spirits, we are all, at least on some level, sheep.

BTW, while some may believe most anything that's taught in church, that's not true for all. In fact, most people I know (and hang with) are not this way. Sure we believe it if we believe it to be the truth, but we don't simply believe it because some guy in the pulpit said it.

I didn't see Christ rise from the dead but I still can believe that it is true. One does not need to be an eyewitness to believe and event is true. And there are well reasoned arguments that support the belief that Christ rose from the dead. Many people through the ages have believed. Some were former atheists. More than one atheist has researched to prove the resurrection a fraud and came away a believer.

I don't think there is just one single reason to believe the Bible to be the Word of God. While it's true that some learn from childhood to believe, there are many than come to believe the Bible is true when they are much older. It may be true that a child believes blindly, for what do they know of reasoned thinking. But this is not true for adults. And when you have learned men and women coming to faith later in life, that is not something that can be explained away by talk of "blind faith." I may have come to faith somewhat "blindly" but it's not what sustains my faith. While I believe in my heart that the Bible is true, I also believe it in my mind. I'm fully convinced that God exists, that the Bible is His revealed Word for us, and that Jesus is His Son, and that Jesus died and rose from the grave. Such beliefs do not conflict with intellectual thought.

I do however believe that many do blindly follow their political leaders. As for me being hard right, not really. I'm definitely a conservative but I have many moderate views.

And everyone is part of some flock. It's like the group of kids at the highschool who all are in rebellion and claim to be "expressing their individuality" and independence. They are their own "unique" man or woman. And this group of kids, they all look, dress, act - the same. They are a flock of sheep just like the rest. They are worse off because they think they are different. But they are not.

If people are like sheep, NO ONE isn't one. They may like to think of themselves as "not a sheep" but the reality of it is, we are all sheep at some level. And I don't think that is a bad thing. It does depend on what exactly I mean by being a sheep.

Übergeek 바둑이: " religion.. the opiate of the masses" someone said