JungleBurger: Thinking he exists makes no sense. Just as believing God exists.

I thought the idea was to just 'know'.

The Col: I'm not being hard on myself. I can talk about the past me and be honest about him, because I'm not him anymore. The past me believed whatever he wanted to believe. He would have voted for Obama, and based on nothing more than liking his style. The right side of my brain believed I was an intellectual because that's what I wanted to believe. If the left side of my brain objected to anything I would just ignore it.

I would like to believe that all changed due to age and experience, and maybe that contributes to the change, but experience tells me otherwise.

I'm not an unhappy guy. If anything, I'm a little bit too happy.. ha ha

Iamon lyme: As long as you're happy and nobody gets hurt , go nuts

Iamon lyme: What did he tell you to believe? if you don't mind me asking? :)

JungleBurger: The answer to your question was in the statement above it. I believed whatever I wanted to believe.

I didn't distinguish between what I wanted to believe and reality.. which is another way of saying I wasn't being honest with myself. Of course, atheists don't do this because they are honest intellectuals who need our help to understand how dangerous it is to not believe as they do. That was a mouthful, try saing that after taking a big bite from your Jungle Burger! No no no, just kidding! If you do that you'll get Jungle Burger all over your keyboard.

Iamon lyme: Hey, what's with the nic name anyway? Never mind, since I'm you, I already know. Which isn't true. I don't know because I"m you, I know because you told me. And no, I don't talk to myself. But good to "see" you again my friend. Seems like I just saw you this morning while shaving. But that guy was bald. And shorter. So it couldn't have been you. Unless.......aliens....

Artful Dodger: Shorter? How could you know you are shorter than me if you aren't me? And how do you know I'm not bald? Who are you really?

Oh crap, now I'M becoming confused. How do we, I mean I, oh crap.. how are YOU going to untangle this?

Iamon lyme: Well, maybe you're me and I"m you. If that's the case, I'm smarter than you. And since I'm smarter, then I know a lot about Fast and Furious. But since I don't know a lot, then I"m maybe not you. Unless you don't know a lot either then I probably am.

If you're confused then that proves you're me.

Artful Dodger: No, wait a minute. I may have been gone six months, but I still remember you telling me that I know more stuff than you do. I told YOU that you're smarter than me, so if you say I know more stuff then who am I to argue? I remembered that because of it's flawless logic.. it forms a perfectly flawless circle.

So there...

did I just tell myself off? Oh well, if I did then I probably deserved it.

Iamon lyme: I think you just did.

Iamon lyme: oops, correction:

I said [ I didn't distinguish between what I wanted to believe and reality.. which is another way of saying I wasn't being honest with myself. Of course, atheists don't do this because they are honest intellectuals who need our help to understand how dangerous it is to not believe as they do. ]

What I meant to say was [ I didn't distinguish between what I wanted to believe and reality.. which is another way of saying I wasn't being honest with myself. Of course, atheists don't do this because they are honest intellectuals, and we need their help to understand how dangerous it is to not believe as they do. ]

I really should look these over BEFORE sending them, instead of after.

JungleBurger: You still haven't answered my question. Why did you ask me if I wrote what I wrote? I obviously 'wrote' it, I'm the only one sitting here writing this stuff, so it's obvious that you meant something else. by the way, if you don't want to answer that, then no worries about that from me either. ;)

What is a Jungle Burger? I'm just guessing here, but are you a vegetarian? Or vegan? Is that why it's call "Jungle"?

You ask what made me think He exists. That is not an easy one to answer. I asked Him, "If you exist then let me know." He let me know. There is no way I can prove that to you, so it's really not an answer you can hang your hat on.

Sometimes you have to believe there could be something on the other side of a door, otherwise why would anyone bother to open it? See what I mean?

Iamon lyme: What is a Iamon lyme? Did you mess up and missed placed adding an "E" and "I"? :)

Sorry, My nic on here LOL? isn't that my business? :)

JungleBurger: []_ [[]] []_

My nic says I am only me. Don't let the spacing confuse you. If your nic is none of my business, then how can something as personal as a belief in God be any of yours? hhhm?

sorry, but I don't assume every friendly face I see rests upon a friendly head.

Iamon lyme: There is a utube video called Jungle Burger.A bunch of marching penises.....and it kinda regresses from there LOL

The Col: Thanks for the warning. Maybe JB doesn't know that... I still say it sounds like a vegans answer to the hamburger. You know, a hamburger with everything, but hold the meat patty. Actually sounds like a tasty meal. I could always heat up a meat patty later in the evening.. after dark.. in the light of a full moon.

Iamon lyme: I'm partial to chicken, but whatever floats yer boat

The Col: Yum in lots of ways :D I see a recipe board here :)

Iamon lyme: Neither is the Bible... it's just a tool book, the cross.. just an icon, the ten commandments... just words. Yet many people who say they are men (or women) of God keep saying these are sacred. We must do this.. because the Bible says so..

But if so, then they have in fact abandoned the first principle of being Children of God. Freedom to be an unmoved mover

No-one mentioned worshipping a 'shrine'... or as commonly known, a statue or sculpture. Just showing a mark of respect to someone who helped save lives and 'invented' the ideas behind modern computing.

Like with war cemeteries.. shall we take all the acknowledgements down given to those who have fallen in defence of others?

"So, depending on whether you believe in God or not, here are our options... we can worship a God who created us in His image, or we can be the gods who create tools in our image."

who says there are only two options? This is a world of colour not of monochrome as rightly pointed here...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6gthQuogUA

Good film by the way..

(V): " No-one mentioned worshipping a 'shrine' "

That's true, because I didn't say anyone was worshiping a shrine.

Iamon lyme: Or the tool? Or God not knowing that which is, just believing. Like Constantine when a solar event made him (through the help of an advisor) decide to worship the Son of God rather than the Sun?

Or should we fear the tool? Like when the American manufacturers were approached by two US boffins who'd designed the first robotic arms because of sci fi films of the era.... the two guys went to Japan and made a mint.

(V): Mints are good. I found one on my pillow once at a ritzy hotel. Did those guys who went to Japan make any more of those? If not, then logic dictates that the mint I found on my pillow had to have been the very same one they made in Japan.

By the way, if you suffer from headaches, I know about a sure fire cure...

Iamon lyme: Logic does not dictate that. Pure logic excepts a certain uncertainty in things of the world, yes/no/or/and\or.. otherwise some tools like the one you are using now cannot work. Pure philosophical logic knows nothing and yet knows everything...

Is this sure fire cure for headaches the one you use?

(V):

Logic is a good tool. But it's not a perfect tool. You can start with a solid premise, proceed with flawless logic, and still come up with a wrong answer. I suspect you might argue with the word 'wrong', but this has been tested and proven to be true long before I was born. A wrong outcome can usually be attributed to a flawed premise, but not always.

" Pure philosophical logic knows nothing and yet knows everything... "

Oh come on, admit it... you pulled that one out of a fortune cookie.

Iamon lyme: Logic always has limits, it is also often misused in situations that logic cannot be logically applied.

No, I not going to argue with the word wrong, but I will point out that sometimes... we can't just know if something is wrong. Like the current model of how matter is made up and through the likes of the Higgs particle we can exist.

.... the model might be wrong, yet it might be right.

"Oh come on, admit it... you pulled that one out of a fortune cookie."

Nope, though you might find similar in a fortune cookie. You'd also find it in various religious texts and writings on throughout human history. Not everything is Confucius!!

"No, and for good reason. It can only be used once, but it's almost 100% effective. I say 'almost' because there is a small chance of survival."

Effective for how long? Puberty is just another incarnation away!!

(V): "No, I not going to argue with the word wrong, but I will point out that sometimes... we can't just know if something is wrong. Like the current model of how matter is made up and through the likes of the Higgs particle we can exist."

How does saying "sometimes... we can't just know if something is wrong" disprove what I said about logic?

A lot of theorists have spent years looking for the Higgs particle. If it can be proven to not exist, there are going to be a lot of very unhappy physicists seen jumping out of second story windows.

Iamon lyme: um right.... I didn't say that, I said it in regards to things being wrong.

They've not said they've found it, they've not reached a high sigma value of certainty. At best, they can only say where it isn't. So.. they might be right, they might be wrong. It's undecided...... there is no wrong or right answer that logically can be given in such a circumstance.. it's a maybe.

Most I've heard say they are ok about not finding it. Just it'll mean rewriting particle physics theories, but then again it could be like Newtons laws on gravity.. mostly right.

.. Like that text book answer you nicked off the web on three dimensions.. which is right and wrong. We need time as well to exist as we do, which makes 4 dimensions minimum., space/time being one and the same.

(V): Time isn't a physical dimension, and I didn't nic anything off the web. It's just common sense, or is that something else you don't believe in?

Iamon lyme: Isn't it? The web (I just checked to be sure) states...

"Time is one of the seven fundamental physical quantities in the International System of Units."

I do believe in common sense, having an opinion that your answer looked like several answers on the web is allowed isn't it?

"As for Christians, I don't pay much attention to the ones who share your beliefs in what/who God is or isn't."

What do you think my beliefs are on the subject?

As to my existence.. well it's me or you've worse to worry about then hearing aliens.

(V): Subject: Re: Time isn't a physical dimension, and I didn't nic anything off the web.

"Isn't it? The web (I just checked to be sure) states...

"Time is one of the seven fundamental physical quantities in the International System of Units"

And that tells you I've been nicking stuff off the web? Good work, Sherlock. You've solved another mystery.

Iamon lyme: Is there something wrong with using web based info? Then if so..... we're all doomed!! doomed I tell ya

(V): Oh no run for cover lol

(V): No, there's nothing wrong with using web based info. That's not my point. I anticipated someone telling me there are more than three dimensions. But the word 'dimension' has come to mean more than what it used to mean. I don't look at time or space as being 'objects', so I was obviously not talking about that. Nor was I refering to the multi-dimensions theorized to exist in String theory. But if you want to be technical about it, then yes, both time and space can be seen as dimensions. Since an atom is almost entirely made up of empty space, then it would have to be included in the definition of what a dimension is.

No one consulted me when they decided to expand on the word 'dimension'. I told them maybe they should try using other words, to avoid confusion, but did they listen? Nooooooo!

Iamon lyme: I'm not talking about treating them as 'dimensions', more as the old style of calling time the 4th dimension. Then we get into gravity.. ... that one is strange... where does it go?

Science changes, when I learnt physics, electrons still went around in nice orbits none of this quantum existence, rotation and vast amounts of empty space. Light was a beam, not a wave and particle.

But 3D is cool.

(V): That bit about aliens that I go on and on about... you don't think I'm serious about that, do you? And yet, there are conspiracy theorists here who apparently think AD and I are the same person. Art and I joke about it, but let's face it, they belong to that group of people who really do get their jollies from speculating about such things.

If you spent less time incorporating other peoples opinions in with your own, you wouldn't need to worry over whether or not someone else is nicking stuff off the web.

And this business of we don't know if something is right or wrong, or we've at least proven where something can't be found but that doesn't prove it doesn't exist, that kind of thinking really is the stuff that fortune cookie proverbs are made of.

Iamon lyme: Well there is a problem on alot of multi's on this site, even people logging into others accounts...... I'm sure Art can fill you in on this.

"If you spent less time incorporating other peoples opinions in with your own, you wouldn't need to worry over whether or not someone else is nicking stuff off the web."

I'm not, it just looked almost exactly like something I read a few months back.

"And this business of we don't know if something is right or wrong, or we've at least proven where something can't be found but that doesn't prove it doesn't exist, that kind of thinking really is the stuff that fortune cookie proverbs are made of."

Not really, sometimes I don't know, or I'm not sure is the best answer.

(V): "...it just looked almost exactly like something I read a few months back."

That's odd. Jungle Burger said almost the exact same thing a few pages back.

"...I thought I'd heard that saying before from somewhere else. :)"

I am on lyme: Come Watson, we must hurry. I've informed Lord Bloatington of our arrival, and I wager the scandalous Lady Butterbottom will be there as well.

Iamon lyme: Did they? ... I'll take your word for it that the chimps have been at the typewriters again. Though it is a common phrase!!

(V): "Though it is a common phrase!!"

Right, common to you and one other person here. From the time I was a teenager, I can count the number of times I've been accused of "nicking" on one hand. A failing grade on a paper (from a bone head teacher) in 8th grade English class, a friend in high school asking "Where did you read that?", and you. And a few others not worth mentioning, no need to involve the other hand.

I couldn't prove I didn't cheat on a paper in the '60s, but now there is google.. wish we had it then. So nick the web all you want, but next time google something if you think I don't have the brains to figure out this stuff for myself.

Iamon lyme: okayyyyyyyyy

Iamon lyme: Emma has the theory that you and I are the same and she's got some other fanciful theories about multi nics too. She feeds them to Jules and he eats it up like a hungry puppy. It's more fun to make things up as that pair believes fiction more than they do what's true. They are not alone.

Artful Dodger: I think the main question is, other than a small handful of people, does anyone care?
This is kids stuff, If you had pm'd this post it might make sense, the fact you posted it on a message board looks like whoever thinks you and lyman are the same may have a point.

The Col: Well maybe you're right but it's been too quiet in here and we got on a roll.

Artful Dodger: There are more of them?

Iamon lyme: There's a bunch but over half of those are fake IDs anyway.

(V): " Is this sure fire cure for headaches the one you use? "

No, and for good reason. It can only be used once, but it's almost 100% effective. I say 'almost' because there is a small chance of survival.

Actually, I was just checking to see if you were reading my messages, or could somehow divine them without looking.

(V): " who says there are only two options? "

I don't know.. who said that? I believe what I said was 'so here are our options'. I'll have to go back and look, but I'm pretty sure that's what I said. Just because I was focused on what I believe were the relevant options, that doesn't exclude the existence of options that are not relevant.

I still don't know why you think I was talking about worshiping a shrine. A shrine is built to house something that is worshiped, the shrine itself is not built to be the object of worship. The evidence of what I actually said is what you put in your own subject heading. So lift up thine eyes, and gaze upon what you put into your own subject heading.

" Just showing a mark of respect to someone who helped save lives and 'invented' the ideas behind modern computing. "

I see. So it's not to honor the man, it's just a mark of respect... ?

On another point, is it your opinion that computers are NOT tools?

Iamon lyme: But they are not our options. they may be your options.. but others may have more than two. Nor does it mean they are relevant options.

Yes, computers are tools, but the mind that created them was not. It was alive... unless, are the aliens telling you different??