Artful Dodger: she never said that he went for the SOLE PURPOSE of destroying homes

Tuesday: Did you see the hundreds of thousands of people being murdered and maimed before we went in?

Artful Dodger: this board would be really boring if we all agreed,lol

Artful Dodger: How... they are killing innocent civilians. It comes from firing at 'military' targets in a dense population zone. No missile can distinguish between civilian and military.. it just goes to it's designated target (or nearby) and blows up.... BANG!!!

.. people die.

(V): A civilian is not innocent if they are forced to be a shield for any military targets..... I put all the blame of any civilians killed directly on the people who use them as shields by putting military instillation in densely populated areas!

Czuch: That makes them even more innocent. And as for a densely populated area....

.... Ok, supposed during the cold war it got a little heated and the USSR launched some nukes at silo's in the USA and the missile went off target and wiped out an American city through radiation, heat and blast damage.

... You are saying this is ok?

(V): Its a cold war silly, what is happening in Israel right now is hardly a cold war.... it is legitimate retaliation and if Hammas is so worried about innocent people they should not lob bombs themselves!

Czuch: Not an answer.

(V): okay, no it is not right for ussr to lob a nuke at us if it was not in retaliation, if we already lobbed a couple at them, then all bets are off and if they nuke us, well too bad for us!

Artful Dodger: No. Hamas and Israel are the problem, and that the UN has been blocked from taking action all these years by the USA.

... It's a bit difficult to move when there is no where really safe to move to.

Maybe, they should of just gone in land wise in the first place rather then using highly destructive weapons that no matter what will kill civilians.

And that the death toll is so one sided, just shows... It makes me think almost sometimes that the Israelies have turned into what they hated in some ways. Big bullies with big guns.

(V): What do you expect??? I mean really, you kill one and i am only allowed to kill one in return?? You need to make them pay and hurt enough to never want to mess with you again, war is not about being fair and playing nice, if you get hit, i say pound them back and make them regret ever messing with you!

Czuch: That's the kinda attitude that led to the use of chemical weapons in WWI, the development of the H bomb and onto biological weapons that would kill all sentient life on this planet.

Boys and their toys of mass destruction.

Artful Dodger: And a kid in Gaza is not a victim? That's wrong to dehumanise a whole country just because of some killers.

It's Hama's, Israel and others for letting the situation go on this long. I'm afraid you sound like those in NI who use to justify killing civilians on the side of the IRA just because they were pro IRA.

Artful Dodger: Sorry, but both sides are involved. Hama's killing Israelies and Israelies killing Palestinians.

Maybe we should set up a big 1 mile area sq and get all those who want to kill each other in there with just clubs.

Then both civilian populations can have a holiday and watch from the sidelines. AND NOT GET KILLED.

Artful Dodger: this problem is longer then a few years Art... it goes back decades. As I said earlier, if certain UN resolutions and security council actions had not been vetoed then maybe we would have already a sustainable peace.

And why target police stations ?

Artful Dodger: Killing will just make it worse not better. Maybe Israel should sit down with the rest of the middle east and work at a plan FULL STOP.

I could be chairman.. and clout anyone who acts like a kid and won't contribute to a lasting peace plan.

Artful Dodger: It reminds me of when I would fight with my sister when we were kids.If I started the fight I would be forced to apologise,if my sister started it,we both got repremanded.Israel is in a no win situation,they are expected to take their daily bombings,and smile.Hamas should be blamed for bringing this onto the Palestinian civilians.

Jim Dandy: Hamas was formed in 1987, the problems started before that. They are just the result of a biased system and idiotic policies regarding the Palestinians.

The Palestinians should have been (through some land given up by their muslim brothers) a complete home land.

Also I find it hard to accept the devilling of the Hamas by USA citizens after the support they gave to the IRA in terms of funds and weapons. Also I find it hard for Americans to denounce terrorism after the many cases of interference and support to terrorist organisations during the cold war, just because the government in power of a country (such as Chile in the 70's) was socialist.

The "School of the Americas" as it was called in a UN report was citied as ""graduating 500 of the worst human rights abusers in the hemisphere."

(V): They are just the result of a biased system and idiotic policies regarding the Palestinians.

Sounds like you would make an excellent unbiased mediator....

Czuch: Both sides and those who have allowed the situation to go on for decades need slapping. I'd kidnap all the leaders and put them on an island (with hidden cameras) till they got their act together and made a plan that can work. Of course there will need to be comprimises and give and take. But the alternative...

... I lived through the IRA period, I've also seen the end of that period. Nobody can say peace cannot be achieved as the end of the IRA and related hostilities by loyalists proves it can be done.

Artful Dodger: Iran has no borders with Israel. They don't matter that much in an agreement as such over the redrawing of borders do they.

Artful Dodger: http://www.palestine-net.com/history/bhist.html The complete history of the area/country known as Palestine.....

And please in full quote stuff I have quoted..
"His Majesty's Government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country."

And yes, Palestine is a Latin word.. Like many Latin words which the English language uses or derivatives of. As we also use words based on Greek, German, French, Spanish, etc, etc, etc. And?

As a certain famous film says.. "What have the Romans done for us... Aqueducts!!"..

Artful Dodger: so on the news when they refer to the Palestinian people...who are they referring to?? I am NOT trying to be a smart a** either,lol...I am serious...who are they referring to then??

Artful Dodger: Never ever any Arabs living in that area before Israel applied and eventually got recognised as a country by the UN?

.... Who did live there under the Ottoman Empire times?

Artful Dodger: So the people living in Palestine could not be called Palestinians?

.. and as for "They never had a government, never were an organized people, have no history in the land," maybe they were ruled, but many after WWI and WWII gained their autonomy.... The Red Indians lived in America before us Europeans moved over... Were they not a people? Never were organised...

From the encyclopaedia Brtannica..
History » From 1900 to 1948

In the last years of the 19th century and the early years of the 20th, the Palestinian Arabs shared in a general Arab renaissance. Palestinians found opportunities in the service of the Ottoman Empire, and Palestinian deputies sat in the Ottoman parliaments of 1877, 1908, 1912, and 1914. Several Arabic newspapers appeared in the country before 1914. Their pages reveal that Arab nationalism and opposition to Zionism were strong among some sections of the intelligentsia even before World War I. The Arabs sought an end to Jewish immigration and to land purchases by Zionists. The number of Zionist colonies, however, mostly subsidized by the French philanthropist Edmond, baron de Rothschild, rose from 19 in 1900 to 47 in 1918, even though the majority of the Jews were town dwellers. The population of Palestine, predominantly agricultural, was about 690,000 in 1914 (535,000 Muslims; 70,000 Christians, most of whom were Arabs; and 85,000 Jews.

And no history in the land... explain who the ottoman's were ruling and like in many latter empires teaching them to look after themselves?

Artful Dodger: Right...... So why in America, are the Native Americans getting back land and ownership of land that was taken from them by a foreign invader from another country?

Artful Dodger: So a people that have lived in that area called by different names including Palestine are not entitled to a home? Is that what you are saying.

They should (like the Jews) just be nomadic and be spread all over the world?

.. I was using the American Indians as an example.

Btw.. what do you think of the Haganah terrorists?

Artful Dodger: Ok.. we are getting somewhere at last. Basically what I've been saying all along.

The Palestinians need a secure whole homeland. One with space!! So one or two of their Arab neighbours needs to give some land up, ideally next to the west bank and Israel needs to withdraw all settlements in such area, proper border controls under UN troops control and we might be getting somewhere.