Czuch: You think that the idea of the extermination of Jewish people is a recent event.. Look back at the founders of the Protestant faith.

(V): Okay, that is a big problem then now facing Israel, I can understand their reluctance to compromise!


Anyway, If I were with you in charge of a new negotiation agreement attempt, here is where I would go with it.... give the pals enough land to make them complete, I dont know what that is or if it is even reasonable, but I would try to get there, and then one condition would be, that is it, done, no more land no more nothing, and henceforth any actions against Israel by anyone would be met with instant annihilation from the international community, thats it, no second chances, no more negotiations, nothing.... i am sure it wouldnt be too long before we would have to lob nukes everywhere making good on that promise!

Czuch: Instant annihilation... Genocide is against the law and is considered a war crime. Eg.. one of the reason that we went to war against Saddam and others recently.

And using nukes in such an area close by where much of the world gets it's oil..

.... M.A.D!!! anyway.. doesn't the Americans have MOAB (GBU-43/B) now?

(V): Genocide is against the law and is considered a war crime.


Not if it is agreed upon that is a condition of the agreement, whichever side breaks the agreement will be wiped of the map, if both sides say okay, well then it aint illegal anymore

Czuch: Wrong Czuch.....

The Contracting Parties,

Having considered the declaration made by the General Assembly of the United Nations in its resolution 96 (I) dated 11 December 1946 that genocide is a crime under international law, contrary to the spirit and aims of the United Nations and condemned by the civilized world,

Recognizing that at all periods of history genocide has inflicted great losses on humanity, and

Being convinced that, in order to liberate mankind from such an odious scourge, international co-operation is required,

Hereby agree as hereinafter provided:

Article I: The Contracting Parties confirm that genocide, whether committed in time of peace or in time of war, is a crime under international law which they undertake to prevent and to punish.

Article II: In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

Article III: The following acts shall be punishable:

(a) Genocide;
(b) Conspiracy to commit genocide;
(c) Direct and public incitement to commit genocide;
(d) Attempt to commit genocide;
(e) Complicity in genocide.

Article IV: Persons committing genocide or any of the other acts enumerated in article III shall be punished, whether they are constitutionally responsible rulers, public officials or private individuals.

Article V: The Contracting Parties undertake to enact, in accordance with their respective Constitutions, the necessary legislation to give effect to the provisions of the present Convention, and, in particular, to provide effective penalties for persons guilty of genocide or any of the other acts enumerated in article III.

.. It's called the Geneva Convention and was signed after the events during WWII.

And here is a list of those who have not signed...

http://www.preventgenocide.org/law/gencon/nonparties-alpha.htm

I don't see the USA, Israel or the UK on that list on non signers.

(V): My point is that it would not really be genocide if you agree to have no grievance against me for any future retaliations to your unprovoked attacks!

Simply put... we agree on one last and final land agreement....and agree to not involve the other in any military or terrorist or other acts of aggression towards each other.

The world also agrees that any future aggressions will result in the forfeiture of anything already agreed upon, meaning all bets are off, and the international community will back the non aggressor in any and all actions against the aggressor!

Simple, take some land, be happy or die, your choice!!!

Czuch: How can they take some land if no-one gives it to them? They are not exactly a country with advanced technology are they!!

And even if the international community (who have been trying to get involved legally for quite some while... but a certain country keeps vetoing action) gets involved, it'll mean more so that the Geneva Convention will be followed. But this time it'll be an international force between Hamas and Israeli forces. Far bigger then both sides together.... hopefully.

(V): It's rather simple actually.Stop terrorist activities and acknowledge Israel's right to exist.That's a good start point to any negotiation with another party,it's called "negotiating in good faith",been done for centuries.

Jim Dandy: And at the same time, seeing as their use to be a actual Palestine country, let them have a real one, not two bits with chips knocked off by a powerful neighbour.

It's so simple, yet no-one is doing it. Put UN checkpoints between the Israeli/Palestinian borders so no arms come in, etc, etc.... A bit of real security just like Israel wants.

(V): The Palestinians need representation that is supported,too many(Hamas) would be out of a job if peace and a resolution is achieved.Some think that's the same reason we've yet to find a cure for cancer.There is more money in managing the disease,as opposed to curing it.

Jim Dandy: Yep. They may then just put all of their efforts into building the country.. they do some good even at the mo.. just the bad element needs it's teeth pulled. It certainly is lining the pockets of alot of weapons manufacturers. They do like a lovely war.

(V): How can they take some land if no-one gives it to them?

I never said "take land" I said agree to give them land, one last time, and then cease fire with full consequenses for the next to break that cease fire agreement!

Full consequenses are that you bomb the heck out of them until they cry uncle then you take whatever you want and make them your indentured.

Czuch: Then you just become another mass murderer like Hitler and the Nazis... And what happened to them in court after WWII?

(V): Subject: Re:hat you bomb the **** out of them until they cry uncle
Czuch: Then you just become another mass murderer like Hitler and the Nazis... And what happened to them in court after WWII?


Well, I am obviously exaggerating a bit to make a point, But let me ask you then.... what is the punishment when one side breaks a peace agreement?

Lets say we both agree to not sneak up behind the other and hit them over the head with a stick... but the sanction for breaking this agreement is to sit in the corner for awhile, or to go without supper for a night, is that good enough, really? But if we agreed that you would be executed if you did it again, well then I am certain that might deter you a bit more?

We have already witnessed how well UN sanctions worked with Saddam.... dont kill anymore of your own people and dont make anymore bad weapons or we will well, we will do something.... hahaha the only thing that works is the threat of major force, and when it is an empty threat, it only makes others think they can get away with it too, thats why the US had to go spank Saaddam, now any other freaks out there know we arent afraid to keep our promices... well unless they think Obama is going to be a UN whimp, but that is unlikely!

Czuch: The punishment depends on who it is and who their friends are in the international community. As I've mentioned, Israel have been naughty several times and certain UN resolutions and security council actions have all been vetoed by the USA, therefore stopping any action or punishment even though Israel broke international and UN laws.

It's a funny old world.

(V): I think when you're a country that has been under attack may times by multiple contries at the same time,sometimes at a 10-1 ratio of manpower,you're entitled to be "naughty" once in awhile.Did you hear about the latest in Italy?

http://mobile.reuters.com/mobile/m/FullArticle/CTOP/ntopNews_uUSTRE5082FY20090109?src=RSS-TOP

Jim Dandy: A step to far, peaceful protests are the traditional tool of voicing opinion. It's not the Jewish communities outside Israel fault.

Ever seen "Don't mess with the Zohan"?

(V): your opinion of "a step too far" might be altered if you lived in Israel

Jim Dandy: Not sure, even in Israel opinion is split.

(V): Opinions in Israel are generally split many ways,that's what you get when you have as large a number of political parties as they do.They are surprisingly united on this stance though,not totally united,but far more than split.

Jim Dandy: I think they'd all be saying that an end to this situation needs to be found, but as for the way..... Mmmmmmmm

Artful Dodger: .. Pre 1945 there was a Palestine where Israel is now.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Mandate_of_Palestine

Here's a nice map of it in 1924

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Palestine_N.JPG

Artful Dodger: I just don't just check Wikipedia Art...

I look at several sources.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/worldwars/wwone/middle_east_03.shtml

The history of the fall of the Ottoman Empire and the invasion of Palestine.

Are you trying to tell me that all the people in that area at the end of WWI suddenly vanished and a new people came into existence filling the void?

http://www.zionism-israel.com/maps/Palestine1100tribes.jpg
And this ancient map showing Palestine divided by the twelve tribes of Israel.....

http://www.zionism-israel.com/Map_of_Palestine_1845.htm
And this map shows.....

And this about the end of Ottoman rule..
"In Egypt, too, British forces gained a new commander, General Sir Archibald Murray, and additional resources. By stages the mission of the Egyptian Expeditionary Force (EEF) evolved from a defence of Egypt to an invasion of Palestine.

First, the Sinai Desert, with its sand storms and searing temperatures, had to be crossed, a test of endurance as well as of engineering for the troops involved. Access to water dictated what could be achieved. Tens of thousands of camels and drivers were required to supply the thirsty soldiers, while a water pipe and a railway were extended to the borders of Palestine."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/worldwars/wwone/middle_east_03.shtml

..."The region came to be known as Palestine in the time when the Greeks ruled the region beginning in about 333 B.C. The name “Palestine” comes from “Philistines,” the name of the people who settled in the narrow strip of land along the southeastern part of the Mediterranean coastline some time after 1200 B.C. (Take a look at this map to get a better sense of the area.) Today, “Palestine” refers to the area covered by Israel, Gaza, and Jordan.

The distance from Dan to Beersheba, the traditional northern and southern limits of Palestine, is around 150 miles. Two long valleys run north and south, one along the Mediterranean coast and the other along the Jordan River. Between these fertile farmlands are many small mountain ranges suitable for raising sheep. Deserts lie to the east of the Jordan and to the south and west of the Dead Sea."
http://www.americanbible.org/brcpages/palestine

An in Judaism 101....
"During World War I, the Zionist cause gained some degree of support from Great Britain. In a 1917 letter from British foreign secretary Lord Balfour to Jewish financier Lord Rothschild, the British government expressed a commitment to creating a Jewish homeland in Palestine. This letter is commonly known as the Balfour Declaration. Unfortunately, the British were speaking out of both sides of their mouth, simultaneously promising Arabs their freedom if they helped to defeat the Ottoman Empire, which at that time controlled most of the Middle East (including the modern states of Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, and Iraq, as well as significant portions of Saudi Arabia and northern Africa). The British promised the Arabs that they would limit Jewish settlement in Palestine mere months after the Balfour Declaration expressed support for "the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people." "

I think it's safe to say you are wrong Art, and need to restudy the history (ancient and modern) of the area, including who named it as a matter of when it was under government from another country.

Artful Dodger: You said ..."showing with evidence when and where this Palestine "country" was."

I have. Not only as under ancient names as used by the ruling force, but also as a name as chosen at the end of WWI. The Arab People were there before the influx of Jewish people after WWI. Israel may have a long 'history' but compared to the other races that have lived their before and after the fall of Israel/Palestine as a nation in olden days. Even if Jesus's day the area was known as Palestine.

http://www.answers.com/topic/palestine..

Artful Dodger: well, you can label it anyway you want, but the fact is THEY are there and they are not going away,Obviously they are not going to submit or be cowered,and fighting will continue,and the birthrate for them (and most of the third world) is on their side, no matter how many Israel tries to import with those that have Jewish ancestry.Some one better start thinking strategically, because apartheid, mass deportations or even genocide won't work in this world anymore. The Pal's have world opinion on their side, and they exploit this. The situation won't just go away

Charles Martel: well, you can label it anyway you want, but the fact is THEY are there and they are not going away,


Okay, yes they are there, but just because I am here and I want to be there, and you are there and dont want me here, does not mean, that I have to let you be here and saying you used to be here does not mean I have to let you be here again....

Problem is really that the Pals dont just want a new chunk of land, they want the extinction of the IsraeliUntil that part is worked out, I dont know what else can be expected, but you never hear anyone saying that we need to help the Pals to agree to the existance of Israel, do we???

Czuch: Actually this is under work via the UN and various important people who both sides actually listen to.