There is going to be a monthly article of Gothic Chess at Chessville!
This months article is on Gothic minatures!!
There are some great games...so check it out at

Chessville

politer than mine ;o)

This
Bloody
Nunsense
Is
So
Ridiculus
How
Can
Anyone
Understand
It

BLX & OT

TBNISRHCAUI?

Laughing My Cute Ass Off.. :)

And i thought you know something about acronyms:)

AAAIDU = Another Annoying Acronym I Don't Understand
MPSTU = Most People Seem to Understand
YANETUT = You Are Not Expected to Understand This

Just WTSIHSW it means.. hehe

waiting to see if he says what

What's all that AAAIDU and what not?

AAAIDU :-)
Anyway since MPSTU you the answer is NO!
But i think YANETUT.

Hey.. one question here.. In Chess.. can a King take a King?? LMCAO!!!

<>Please PM me if you care to discuss math more. I have been working on a proof of the >Collatz conjecture lately. ;-)

Collatz conjecture??? Damn! One of my 4-5 favourite problems. This is amazing. It is so simple but yet invincible to any try for a solution.

"Mathematics are not ready for problems like this" A great mathematician has said. And he is even now right!

How your proof is going..? Unfortunately i think you are trying to find a snake at New Zealand. Just impossible......
Do you have any good ideas? I wanted to try once something but the collision with the wall was inevitable. I'm 20 years old and i've just started studying mathematics/physics seriously, so maybe my knowledge is not yet capable of understanding the things are needed to even close the solution.

Anyway hope to hear from you soon, about this 3N+1 problem.

Wasn't there a story in the bible that said God would save some city if there were only 10 people who were "good"? Hmmm maybe this is a bad example since that city was destroyed! Ummm, ok, never mind.

nt

This game seems pretty easy. have seen ones similar to it, but I don't recall the details.

It seems to me that P2 needs to clear a row whenever P1 does. In addition to that, if P1 removes and even number of pieces, P2 should remove an even number as well, careful to remove only as many (or fewer) as P1 did. This will assure a win for P2. This will work for any even sized board (8 x 8, 10 x 10, etc.) and for any initial layout as you described.

If the game is played on an odd sized board (9 x 9, 13 x 13, etc.) the situation is reversed and P1 should always win by removing an odd number of pieces on his first turn.

Thad

PS: Chessmaster1000, I am quite interested in item such as this. I have a degree in Mathematics/Coputer Science. Please PM me if you care to discuss math more. I have been working on a proof of the Collatz conjecture lately. ;-)

Yea.... why not just count non votes as yes votes - then your "10" turns into "321" :-)

I doubt if a non-vote means they want it removed, it probably indicates 'no strong feeling'. Even if only two people vote "yes" it should be enough.

votes for keeping Gothic Chess on Brainking.... HMmmm... which must mean there are 311 votes for NO.

If by chance you haven't voted.. and wish to have the game stay.. Please post your YES vote now!!.. hehehe

The list of YES votes

Big Bad Wolf
BuilderQ
Caissus
ChessCarpenter
Nasmichael
Pawnchucker
Rabbitoid
Redsales
ScarletRose.. Wow.. that's me!!
Walter Montego

It's a win for black. It's a game of parity. Let the game consist of N numbers (i = 10 for the first example), x_0 .. x_N-1. Decompose each number in powers of 2: x_i = a_i,0 * 2^0 + a_i,1 * 2^1 + a_i,2 * 2^2 + ..... Now for 0 = j, look at the sums a_i,j, 0 = i < N. Call this sum A_j. A player wins if at the end of his turn, all A_j's are even. For the game 3464334643, we have A_0 = 4, A_1 = 6, A_2 = 6, and A_k for k > 2 is equal to 0. This means the person going second, black, wins.

4444444444 is also a win for black (this is very easy to see, black can always copy what white does). 8888800000 is a win for white - but not if he plays a8. In that case, black plays a1, resulting in 0888800000, which is a win for black.

most welcome...grasshopper!

It was only under your excellent tuetelage that I was able to complete the compliment, heart felt thanks.

in that case ...you have a full load!! I used to think,you were a few shy!!

What a load of nonsense.

i know what you mean...healthy dissent kept this board (bored) alive.

*Sigh*.. walks over to empty table.. moves chancellor over to C7.. goes over to coffee table.. pours cup.. Takes out lip gloss and smears over lips..

Turns around.. stares at empty room.. shrugs shoulders, Walks out*

Please forgive me for the OT and let me show you the interesting game of NIM at a Gothic Chess board.

Suppose the following position at a Gothic Chess board with the Gothic Chess pieces indicated as * and with the empty squares as +, without caring for what every piece is.

+ + + + + + + + + +
+ + + + + + + + + +
+ + * + + + + * + +
+ + * + + + + * + +
+ * * * + + * * * +
* * * * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * * * *
a b c d e f g h i j

The rules for the game moves are easy:
A player can remove a piece from any file and at the same time all the pieces above that piece, are removed from the board too. (For example if he remove the c1 piece, all the pieces from the c file will disappear, if he remove the c2 piece, all the pieces above c2 inluding c2 piece, will disappear).

White plays first.

The goal is to remove a piece last, in order to win.
-------------------------------------------------------------

The question is what game is this? A white-wins game or a black-wins game?
If white takes c3 piece(so only 2 pieces will remain at the c file),
then what black has to play in order to win?

The above board configuration can be named as 3464334643.
What about the configuration 4444444444. What game is this? A white-wins game or a black-wins game?

And what about the configuration 8888800000. Is it a white-wins game or a black-wins game? And if white plays a8?? then what black has to play to win?


These are rather easy questions to answer and if you are wonder why i'm asking them, it is because i want to see if anyone here has any mathematical interest......... In my country, well actually in my town (my country should follow this too) i see only a super-tiny number of people that having interest at mathematics. Also at the non-mathematical forums i read, people don't care about mathematics and even feel scared about them. This is strange as mathematics are everywhere and is one of the most amazing discoveries of mankind.

I'm saying all these, since this game can easily be played perfectly with some beginner's mathematics. I had thousants of wins and i was invincible with my friends that wondered how i do it. And it wasn't a solution that i saw and played it so it was unfair for them, but i had solved this game before seeing the solution.
So i invite all people and especially the younger, to come and explore the amazing world of mathematics!

<>How do they compare to Gothic Chess?
Simple. Bigger board => More tactics. (I'm refering to Grand Chess.)

It's a very fun game to play, but the 10x10 board isn't the most appropriate board size for a human to play it in a good level. If you don't care about your level of play though, and you don't care if you make many mistakes and blunders it's very entertaining.

So many games to play but so little time:-(

I went to the link BuilderQ. The game is almost exactly the same as Gothic Chess. The castling rule sounds cool too. But it could be changed to regular Chess rules and you'd have the same game with a slightly different initial set up, just like Capablanca's and Bird's versions. While at the Chess Variants site I checked out a couple of other games. Grand Chess seems pretty cool though it has some major differences to Gothic Chess. Especially how the Pawns can promote and when. Grand Chess had a link for a chess set. I like how they made the Cardinal and Marshall look. Same pieces as the Archbishop and Chancellor. The board is 10 X 10. I'd like to try both games and see how they play. Has anybody played them? How do they compare to Gothic Chess?

Your absolutely right BBW! It's a win/win situation for both parties! I personally, would like to see that continue.

For Gothic to stay on this site it depends on Filip and Ed! BOTH have to AGREE on it...not just one of them...just so everyone knows!

First - I believe it is in the best interest of the game itself to leave it on this site. The more ways to get people interested in the game is give them more places to play the game. You think 300 or so players who have a rating in Gothic Chess is low, I think that is pretty good for a chess variant - 3rd highest (Chess of course highest, then Atomic with Gothic close 3rd)

Second - To answer some other players comments - Ed Trice threaten before to take Gothic Chess off this site and Fencers answer was if Ed did not want the game here, Fencer would take it off. (or something like that.) So the decicion is Ed's (and his "investors" if the game stays here. Hopefully Ed won't play his games with all the users again and just make the decision yes or no.

So my vote is Yes, keep it here. I've never been a fan of Ed since he started to mess with all the users on this site, but my opinion is that the game is good for this site, and this site is good for the game. It's a win/win situation for the game.

all this talk about protection!!

Whew.. making my head spin.. OUCH!!

Ok, Walter...I'm sorry I took your skepticism for pessimism!

1. I asked Ed not to mention that I was an investor! I just wanted to play Gothic Chess on this site which is why I came in the 1st place! I really don't like to post because everyone twists things around whether they mean to or not.
Ed posted an inquiry on this board on April 1st 2003 on page 45 and that is how I became an investor.
2. Media coverage....of the Gothic Computer Challenge in November which is stated in my orginal post. This includes live coverage of this event. What else can I say?
3. The Gothic piece setup on the 8x10 board is patented and so, if Hasbro and House of Staunton want to make the pieces and say that this is Gothic Chess they need permission from the Gothic Chess Federation.
4.Some offers have come regarding online playing sites...."Is this supposed to WOW us? You're just talking about a game here, and you have all these conspiratorial tones about you." How about many people have asked about a live site that they can play like USCFLive, FICS, ICC, The WorldChessNetwork. If there is something wrong with this, please let me know?
5.Subtle piles of Propaganda...A VOTE!
I just wanted to know how many people were intested in still having Gothic Chess on this site! I just wanted to make it easier just "YES" votes all others would be considered "NO" votes! I didn't want a debate because everything on this board comes to "Venting". That was the reason for my post. Everything is shouted out unlike the fellowship boards like Nasmichael and myself have. I don't think there ever was a post that was Negative to the point that Nasmichael or myself had to tell people to "tone it down"! Thats the kind of boards where I post and still not everyday because I just don't have the time!
6. User Agreement....The last time I looked in the mirror I was Robert Colanzi...other people know me on this site even if you don't!
7."Just what are you insinuating here, Mr. Positive?" After I posted "How about a Vote" I received messages from people that were RUDE to put it nicely. You would not have seen them because they were in "MY" message box.
8.Everyone can have any opinion they want about the patent..thats fine!

Walter I hope I have answered all your questions, if I haven't let me know!

By the way Walter, in my posts, I have always called you by your name..."Walter". Maybe we don't see eye to eye on everything, but lets at least not resort to name calling!

I hope this makes people see things more clear.
I just want people to enjoy this game and have fun Playing it & Discussing it....not fighting over it in any way shape or form.


Thanks,

Robert Colanzi

Caissus: "Ah this is interesting,until registering as WTO patent it is unprotected in the Europeen states?"

LongJohn: "correct, unprotected"
-----------------------------------

Perhaps he has registered already to this WTO, so it may be protected.

Ah this is interesting,until registering as WTO patent it is unprotected in the Europeen states?

In response to Caissus who said that American patents are not valid in Europe, they are. The European Union is a member of the World Trade Organization. All members of the WTO have agreed to respect each other's patent rights. If Ed Trice really wants to protect his patent, he can register it as a WTO patent, which gives it much broader protection outside the USA.

You did it again. You said "We". In the whole time that I've been at this board (Since July 9th), not once did GothicInventor/ Quequesno/ EdTrice mention a partner in the ownership or patenting of Gothic Chess. He always said "Mine" and "I", never "we" or "ours". Not only that, you haven't posted to this board since April. Suddenly you're here saying how optimistic you are. Perhaps you're reading pessimism into my posts? I'm skeptical by nature. Don't mistake skepticism for pessimism. The way you've gone about your post of late is definitely sending warning flags up for me. I don't want to get caught off guard like I just did a couple of weeks ago, and it appears is still ongoing. You haven't answered one of those questions I posed, well one you did. But now you're here telling me how to moderate this board and who to ban. You're right, I don't like the fact that you, er excuse me, Ed Trice has patented this game. But that's just tough for me. It's still a good game. I truly believe that it can't be owned as I understand these things, the actual game itself, and its history. You can start by filling in the details and answering my concerns about ownership of this particular game and how you're going to protect your, er Ed's patent. Who are you? Why didn't Ed give you any credit? Let me start with my first questions.
1) What is your vested interest? Are you partners with Ed Trice? How come he never mentioned you?

You detect sarcasm in my tone? You very first post is ridiculous. You don't see it? The first line of the post dated 20. August 2004, 20:36:40
Media Coverage? I asked you about it, but no reply. Why would Hasbro need your permission, er Ed Trice's permission, to make Gothic Chess sets? The pieces predate his patent.

Next paragraph-Live news crews! I asked you about that too. No reply. Saying it like this makes one think of Eyewitness News, camera crews, and lots of microphones. What do you mean?

Then this sentence- Some offers have come in regarding online playing sites, which I am a little reluctant to discuss right now.--<
Why'd you put that there? Is it supposed to wow us? You're just talking about a game here, and you have all these conspiratorial tones about you.

The rest of the post is one of the least subtle piles of propaganda I've come across. A VOTE! What kind of election doesn't allow more than one choice? ->Instead of spawning a debate, I would like to propose a vote.--< Stifling dissenting voices, sure that'll win you lots of votes and keep debate to a minimum. It worked in the Soviet Union for years.
The whole thing reads like a fluffed up reminder that you're going to take your ball and go home. I tried to give you the benefit of the doubt as I wasn't used to your writing style and might have been interpretting it incorrectly, but as has been shown by your subsequent posts you sound quite a bit like a mouthpiece for someone that was banned from this discussion board more than one time. I'd be carefull if you want to continue using BrainKing if I were you. That's a big time violation of the user agreement.

In your next post dated 21. August 2004, 05:57:52, you reply to my questioning of your "vote". You again say how non-negative you are and your posts. Quoting-
->Also, if I keep getting messages sent to me that are NEGATIVE...to put it nicely...I will post them on this board for everyone to see and then maybe everyone can comment on them. I don't post alot because of the negativity on this DB, thats why in the Gothic Fellowship's DB's I post there--<
Just what are you insinuating here, Mr. Positive? I've never even heard of you, nor have I read any posts mentioning you in a bad way on this board. I looked through a lot of posts trying to find mention of you. The only person that did, was EdTrice. He talks about your skills at Gothic Chess and about making a playing card with you on it. That's it. I didn't find any disparaging remarks directed towards you. Especially during the flame war that went on just before your re-emergence to posting on this board. Oh, what's this? I missed it the first go around. It doesn't sound too positive to me.
>-ChessCarpenter (2210) Rename this DB 15. August 2004, 12:59:33
How about renaming this board to "The VENTING Board"! Come here and vent on anything!--
How nice and helpful you are.
You got me now, what're you up to?

Your post where you ask about my problem is. My problem is I think the patent is invalid and you guys are trying to profit from other people's work and ideas. It might be true that you put a lot of time and energy into your cause, but that doesn't mean you own the game and are trying to make it rich with some legal shenanigans that fool all of us lay people into going along with it. Take a game like Dark Chess and the playing of it on a computer between two people. Now that's a real innovation, but it's still a game that's over a hundred years old with a couple of rule changes. I don't see anyone trying to cash in on it like you guys are. Be happy your game is getting played. Sell books on how to play it, or software, but the game itself is way older than you and your patent. After visiting the link with the patent, I came across ways to have patents re-examined. Unfortunately the fee for an "ex parte" re-examination is $2520.00. So I won't be contesting the patent any time soon. They also mention that the commisioner of the patent office can just open up a patent query on his own, but then he'd have to have a reason to do so. I imagine a game would be pretty low on his to do list. So it would appear your patent will stand unchallenged until you guys try to enforce it against someone playing "your" game without your permission. Then you'll be the ones on the spot and will have to prove it's a good patent. Obviously it must've worked once, since you got the patent in the first place. Or's it easy to get a patent and hard to lose it?

I don't think that an American patent is valid anywhere in Europe...Nobody there with legal knowledge?
Btw : Greetings to all my Gothic-,Janus- and other chessopponents from my vacationplace in Italy.
I have internetaccess from time to time in the hotel, but no board and pieces to analyze my games :(

As i have mentioned at this site: http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/pac/doc/general/index.html#patent
which is the "United states Patent and Tredemark office" says the following:

"U.S. patent grants are effective only within the United States, U.S. territories, and U.S. possessions. Under certain circumstances, patent term extensions or adjustments may be available."

So perhaps the Gothic Chess patent is only available to US but perhaps not. It depends to the patent term extensions and adjustments Ed Trice did......

If I did understand
this correctly the patent of GC works only in the United States!?
But the server has his place in Czechia...
A question to the lawyers?

I doubt they bought memberships just for GC.
If the cost is very low, then I would suggest renewing.
Anything more than $56 EUR per year though, something equivalent to 2 rook memberships would simply be a waste of money from a business perspective I would say.

LongJohn...The cost is very very low! It's not for me to disclose.
Would people leave Brainking if Gothic was longer here I don't think so...this is a great site!
But I know for a fact that many people bought BrainRook and BrainKnight memberships because of Gothic Chess so that is Filip's return!

Fencer must weigh up the 2 sides.
How many people would leave this site if GC is not offered vs the cost of licensing GC for the site. I would think it is most likely that almost everybody will stay here anyway so why pay money for something with no return? Also, I would be curious how much it costs Fencer to use GC on BK

I have similar questions Walter. But i have accepted and understand the fact that Gothic Chess game, it is patented so we should follow all the things the following page refers: http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/pac/doc/general/index.html#patent


But it is still very annoying the fact that i can't create a Gothic Chess engine or that i can't offer from a web-page a game with Gothic's Chess rules even if it is with a different name. And if i understand the following text from the above page correctly, i'm not even allowed without the permission of Ed, to play the game(actually i am allowed, until the patent owner forbids me)!
-------------------
"The right conferred by the patent grant is, in the language of the statute and of the grant itself, the right to exclude others from making, USING, offering for sale, or selling the invention in the United States or importing the invention into the United States. (U.S. patent grants are effective only within the United States, U.S. territories, and U.S. possessions. Under certain circumstances, patent term extensions or adjustments may be available.)"
--------------------


But let's suppose that Ed doesn't give the permission to Fencer (the examples are not choosen to bring any upset, but for easier understanding of what i'm saying) to play the game of Gothic Chess at Brainking.
According with the U.S patent rights, Fencer doesn't have any right to continue playing the game of Gothic Chess (since Ed doesn't want this), AND ALSO he doesn't have any right to continue playing a game that would have the same rules with Gothic Chess EVEN with a changed name.

BUT what about a game with all rules to be the same as Gothic Chess and with one more, that will say for example that the game is draw after 1200 moves. This game is obviously NOT Gothic Chess, since Gothic Chess doesn't have this rule. And the game will be called GZK. I don't see any violate of patent rights.

With the same logic, why i can't create a computer engine that will play a game of JCN? JCN will have all the rules of Gothic Chess with the following 700 rules more:
Rule 1: At move(ply) 800 white player can move one more time.
Rule 2: At move(ply) 801 black player can move one more time.
...................................
...................................
Rule 700: At move(ply) 1499 black player can move one more time.
I could easily say that someone is crazy, if he would say that my game of JCN violates Gothic's Chess patent. JCN has 700 rules more than Gothic Chess.


Anyway, although this post seems a kind of attacking on Gothic Chess (Ed Trice), my intention is absolutely not this! It just getting on my nerves the whole patent thing (not patent and Gothic Chess, but the word patent). Along with Chess and Backgammon, Gothic Chess is my favourite board game and i think it deserves to have great success, and why not to have even bigger than Chess (although it's difficult)!

I wish Fencer renew the licence with Ed for as more years as possible, and i wish also to Ed to find many other sites for playing Gothic Chess. I wish also in the future, to be available many Gothic Chess engines like GC-Junior 8 or GC-Shredder 8.0 and the market of Gothic Chess will become large and i hope hundreds of web-pages to start showing Gothic Chess things. I think that this would happen. Not very fast but it will.....

I have noticed that very often some people like to keep an eye out and identify someone who might be in disfavor and then start piling on thinking that such action will somehow increase their own popularity. As there are a fair number of fellow vultures out there it sometimes looks like it is working but in the long run water seeks its own level. :)

the same patenting argument has occurred with Othello/Reversi and Renju/Pente. In both cases, it was deemed legal to offer the games in their new forms by two courts, one in America, the other in Holland. As music piracy has shown, patents can be very tricky to deal with on the internet, which is bound by no particular country's laws.

Walter, I don't what your problem is? If you don't like that we have a patent to the game and have a license with Filip thats just too bad!
To openly suggest that Filip just keep the game here and not pay a fee just shows what kind of person you really are.

1. If you want the rest of your questions asked just UN-BAN Ed and I'm sure he'll answer your questions. That is if you are really Moderator here?

2. These questions your asking have a sarcastic tone and not an inquistive one! Why is the Moderator of this board being a Basher!

3. Do you still want to be Moderator of this board? Do you care about Gothic Chess or do care just to be a Moderator...this is what your actions suggest!!

I don't what argue about this until Doomsday...what are your intentions?

How's that one played Caissus?

As for this licensing business, I'd just keep the game here and blow them off. If they have a problem with it, rename the game. Kind of like Othello is called Reversi here, right? I still don't get how a patent can be granted for something that's a hundred years old. Suppose I took Bird's chess and said a Pawn could not be captured if the move threw a check and the King or Pawn had not been moved in the game as yet. Making a rule change to try and prevent the quick mate that comes about from the Pawn being unguarded at the start of the game. We'd have a new game, but would it be something that could be patented? In Gothic Chess, there are no new pieces or rules. Just a rearrangement of the pieces that existed a hundred years ago. How can this be a new game and a furthering of the art? I could just take Gothic Chess and require the first piece moved be a Pawn. Would this be a new game? In fact, they purposely made all the rules of regular Chess apply in Gothic Chess. The pieces aren't even named differently from Capablanca Chess! I read Ed Trice's article and he shows that the piece placement in Gothic Chess makes for a better game, but I still don't see how that makes it an invention. There's hundreds of Chess variations. I doubt if many have ever been patented. And even if a few are, what good did it do the patent holder? Perhaps it's my lack of understanding of the patent process and the rights and obligations that come with being a patent holder that is causing my confusion. All the same, to me an invention has to be new and novel in some way. I just don't see that in Gothic Chess. And why Gothic Chess? I didn't ask anyone's permission to play it, nor have I bought a license. I wouldn't even know how to go about getting one, come to think of it. Do I have to pay royalties to play this game? Is the license free, or did Fencer pay them for it? What kind of cost would that be? Seems like Fencer is doing Ed a favor just having the game on his site, spreading it out to the public, and letting Ed advertise Gothic Chess sets and links to his website.
Perhaps I'll write the Patent Office and ask about patents and games and see what the answers are. Or a patent attorney. I have a few things I need to have patented too. Maybe an attorney would answer my questions as he's helping me with my patent application. What does it cost to get a patent? Why bother getting a patent? To protect your idea so that one has exclusive right to it, right? I'd say Gothic Chess is Bird's idea and it's part of the public domain now. Was this patent acquired in the hopes of making it rich? Sounds like someone is out a couple dollars.
I think I will make an 8 X 10 chessboard and play a game on it. I might even market them. Flip it over for an 8 X 8 board. Add some extra pieces for Chess variations. Market it as a Bird's Chess chess set. Wouldn't be much of a problem for someone that wanted to play Gothic Chess to rearrange my Bird's chess set pieces to play that game instead. Would I need a license from anyone to do these things? I really doubt it, plus what can they do if I refuse to buy one? Take my set away and tell me to go home? How's someone like Ed going to enforce his patent? That's assuming it is a patent that can't be contested and overturned, at that. I'm really confused about the whole thing.

Anyways, tell me about the Abergvariation.

I am for a renew of the license for Gothic chess by Edtrice for Brainking.It is only his matter to extend the license.But if he don't want this I am for a replace of GC by a good Capablancavariation , for instance the "Abergvariation".