Herlock Sholmes:
the right formula is 64! / ((8!)^8) = 1,816572393163080675696402792818e+52 which is still more than the amount of cents I have in my bank account.

AbigailII: This is crazy.... I can agree that you can be considered a sore loser if you simply quit when you get behind, but to resign a game with no mathematical possibility to win, that is completely different.


Baseball, there is always a mathematical chance to win, and that is true for all sports. But a game like backgammon, there is a point when it is not finished, where one player has no mathematical chance to win.

Of course, here on Brainking, there is always a chance that someone can timeout, which is not a normal situation for games in general.

Resher: It wasn't my calculation ... it was done by a mathematician ... maybe he was wrong, I don't know..

tfra11: Here in the USA, if we quit, even if we're mathematically eliminated, we're called sore losers.

That's why in America's national passtime, baseball, all 9 innings are always played fully (there's always a bottom of the 9th), and the World Series is always exactly 7 games. And it's easy to pick out the American chess players in tournaments - they always play until mated.

Herlock Sholmes:That would be the case if all 64 pieces were unique, but they're not here.  I haven't got time now to come up with what I think is the right answer, but it will be lower than (8^57)x 7! = 1.5 x 10^55

Speaking with games, the cube decision seems to fit in this drop/hold it discussion. Because if culture is involved, you like to take a look at the peak moment. It's like this comic: When you are at best with your girl you can consider to let a new love start growing from the bottom (j/k).

tfra11: "Here in the USA, if we quit, even if we're mathematically eliminated, we're called sore losers".What rubbish!Giving up graciously in a game you can not possibly win has nothing to do with being a sore loser.no matter what country you happen to be born in.One of the top backgammon players on this site (hello Alan) is an American citizen and he will always resign an obvious loss.

i think nationality doesnt make a difference. culture might or the way someone has being raised by their parents (in any culture)

the main point is ... you are resigning as a favour for your opponent ... therefore its an good ethiquette to warn your opponent you will resign (or ask him if you can) unless you already know what your opponent wants

tfra11: I'm pretty sure a majority of Americans who play here would disagree. (Only because of the MANY times over the years this subject has been brought up) Most people who care about this issue, I believe, feel it is rude to continue a game that is a mathematical loss. Americans included. But I think many don't care (whatever nationality)

Personally, I'm pretty easy going, and it doesn't bother me whichever way someone chooses to handle it. When I know I am playing someone who prefers you resign when you know for sure you have lost, I resign at that point. If I'm playing a friend, who likes to continue a conversation, and just play it out, I play it out.

Actually, I think this has at least as much to do with different game cultures as it has to do with nationalities. In chess, you will sometimes find yourself in a position where:

- you know you're lost
- you know your opponent has the skill to win the game
- but it will still take some 30-40 moves for them to do so.

I suppose that's why experienced chess players have developed this etiquette that you resign when you know you haven't got a chance (unless there's only a few moves left, in which case your opponent might actually be happy to mate you!). I've played chess with people from all over the world on many different sites, and I've never noticed that people from the US were any different in this regard.

The problem, I think, is when people take the game etiquette that they've learned at one game and apply it to a different game and expect it to be universally valid. Which is bound to happen now and then on a site like this. The solution, of course, is to try to tell yourself that whatever your opponent does, he probably means no harm... live and let live... and Fencer, please don't add any more achievements that requires the game to be played out to the end ;-)

ChessVariant: I agree that some stupid blunders are made, as I have made plenty of them myself. However, the kind of eliminations I am talking about are:

1. Chess Example: King vs. King + Rook. Please resign this game if you only have a king rather than make someone finish it.

2. Backgammon example: If you can see that a player will win if he rolls all 2-1 for the remainder of the game, even if the opponent rolls all double 6's, then it is pointless to continue. Only people who are praying for the winning opponent's computer to explode would keep playing this game.

tfra11: I disagree with the USA argument. Why do sports series end early if the other team is mathematically eliminated? (i.e. NBA: Lakers won 4-1 in a best of 7, and there was no need to play all seven). Even with Soccer (Futbol), if a game goes to a Penalty Kick shootout, all 5 kicks by each team are not taken if a team is mathematically eliminated before the 5th kick. With board games, I believe it is universally considered "good sportsmanship" to resign a lost cause.

Carl: I don't agree. Here in the USA, if we quit, even if we're mathematically eliminated, we're called sore losers. I will continue to play all my games out to the end. Sorry if that's poor etiquette wherever you live. That being said, i do not wait until time almost runs out before i play again. I finish it right then and there.

Czuch: Yeah, but personally I hate it when I win by timeout. It doesn't feel like a real victory.

If I realise I will lose the game in the next few moves I play it to the end. If I see I will lose but it'll take a long time I resign. What's the point of dragging a tournament just in case my opponent makes a stupid move or times out?

Carl: not true.... you can always win by a timeout too

awesome: Nobody ever won a game that was mathematically impossible to win either.

wetware:

I'm sure it's a personal thing and quite sportsmanlike but, nobody ever won a game by resigning....

Tuesday: Perhaps it's time I posed this question to my sports psychologist:
why are my 2 favorite sports/games (curling and chess) ones in which resignation in the face of virtually certain defeat is appropriate and expected (as opposed to the majority of contests--which are played until time expires, specific goals are reached, or a certain number of points are scored, etc.)?

I'm not sure it's merely a coincidence; this may be more a matter of temperament.

i usually play on my games until the very end .. although i sometimes already know there wont be a way for me to win anymore

the reason for that is that i like to get a feeling with the end stage of the games .. for example in backgammon i play it on till the end to see wether a gammon or backgammon would be won or what the consequences of the positions would .. and how my opponent handles the end stage

the same for chess games .. i am not a good chess player .. therefore i play it on to see how and end game can be played

in games like dice poker i resign when i am too many points behind .. the same for reversi where i can count out the number of pieces which we will both have in the end

though when i notice that my opponent can reach an achievement then i wont resign and play on
(for example the achievements in dice poker can only be obtained when you win the game and not when your opponent resigns ... so when my opponent has all the bonusses i do play it on till the last move)

i would consider it a bad manner if i would resign such a game .. if i really want to resign i send a message to my opponent if i can resign on the next move ..1 more move wont matter

its good manner and good etiquette do place yourself in your opponent position and think of what (s)he might prefer you to do .. then weigh it against your own wishes .. and make a good decision .. or discuss it with your opponent

There's something I really detest: You get a winning position against an opponent, you know you won, he knows you won, and instead of pressing the resign link he lets the time run out. Now that's asocial behaviour!

does anyone know hat has happened to Kardinal?
he is timing out in a lot of games and still has auto vac on .

alanback:Massacre Chess has this clear advantage that there are no "empty", endless moves ... you either capture or say goodbye ... however, everything can change in the last several moves when situation on the board looks badly ... so, play till the end ...

tfra11:I would say also that there is a difference between quitting and acknowledging the inevitable.  In backgammon in particular, I will resign only when I have no mathematical possibility of winning.  To resign earlier would be quitting.

I would go so far as to say that in other games, such as chess, you should resign a clearly lost position because to play on implies you don't think your opponent has the ability to play out the clear win.  Of course, the question whether a game is "clearly lost" requires some realistic evaluation of the opponent's ability.

tfra11: Bad manners are bad manners regardless of where you were raised.

tfra11: Ah. As I got it it is in your ratings advantage to finish the hopeless games sooner as the wins.

tfra11: It is,nt poor etiquette. It is good manners to resign a game you cant possibly win.

Carl: Okay, i guess things are different in other countries. I was raised to never quit, but if it's poor etiquette elsewhere, i can live with it.

I resign a game that I too know Im going to lose so I don't waste time.. Isn't it still an achievement for the winner if I resign? I thought it was. it is still a win for them

tfra11: You want me to drag on a lost game for god knows how long, on the off chance that my opponent may get an archievement? Get real. If that's going to be the effect of archievements, I hope they'll disappear as soon as possible.

I play for as long as I think there's a realistic chance of archieving a result other than a loss. Otherwise, I resign. I'm here for the game play, not for pushing buttons or archievements.

tfra11: I consider it very poor etiquette to continue in a game that has obviously been won by the other player.Besides,as a pawn with only 20 games to play at once wouldn't you be annoyed if a player waited until the last minute to play a pointless move in a game they could not win?

tfra11:It is good manners to resign a hopelessly lost game.  You've done all you can do to win at that point, and the rest of the game is just meaningless dice rolls.  There are many people who are annoyed at players who drag lost games out just for the sake of postponing the loss.

I love the site and the fact that you can make unlimited moves. The only downside seems to be the amount of people on the site that won't finish a game when they know they have lost. I'd like to earn the achievements and you can't do that when people always resign the game on you. Please just finish it out, who knows, maybe they'll timeout on you and you'll win the game.

I want to let all BrainKing users know that they are entitled to a free membership in the World Camelot Federation.

The WCF is an international non-profit organization that is dedicated to the preservation, popularization, and play of Camelot, one of the finest abstract strategy board games ever invented.

As most of you probably know, both Camelot and its variant Cam are played on BrainKing.

To receive a free WCF membership, please contact me at michael@worldcamelotfederation.com .

There are currently 197 WCF members, spread throughout 14 different countries.  The organization is an informal network of individuals interested in any and all aspects of the game and its variants: Cam, Camette, Chivalry, Grand Camelot, and Grand Cam.

Membership comes with no requirement on your part.  Membership entitles you to a couple of things.  You will receive an occasional informational email
from me regarding subjects like Camelot computer programs, rules questions, editions of sets, legal issues, games, problems, etc.

Additionally, you will automatically receive an invitation to play in the next WCF Camelot World Championship (email) Tournament.  One just concluded two weeks ago.

I hope you take advantage of this chance to learn more about Camelot.

Please visit the WCF website at http://www.worldcamelotfederation.com .

Thanks.

Respectfully,
Michael Nolan (MrWCF on BrainKing)
President & Founder, World Camelot Federation

DeaD man WalkiN: my deepest sympathies to you and your family

DeaD man WalkiN: i'm so sorry to hear that, my deepest sympathy to you and your family.

DeaD man WalkiN:
I am so very sorry for you, your daughter and family

DeaD man WalkiN: So sorry to hear that my friend (:

DeaD man WalkiN: that's awful. I'm so sorry. Go be with your family. You need each other.

DeaD man WalkiN: my sympathies. Life is so unfair. So sorry...

DeaD man WalkiN: [*]

DeaD man WalkiN: If you can, go be with her. You all need each other now.

I'm so sorry to hear about your families loss.

DeaD man WalkiN:God bless you and your family.  Take care of each other, you need each other more than you ever have.

I think I'm going to go insane. My daughter just called and told me that my GRANDSON just DEAD. I don't know what to do he was only 2.

Ok, I got it now, Thanks to all