Artful Dodger:

> Wrong. Capitalism hase brought more prosperity to the world than any other system.
> People who have exploited the system have done harm. But you have far more harm
> being done in a communist system than in capitalism.

Last thing I heard is that 2/3 of the population under capitalism live in poverty. After all, most capitalist countries are "developing". Before making the claim that capitalism has brought prosperity, one must make sure that by capitalism one does not refer to just the wealthy industrialized nations, but also to the poor, developing nations in which masses of people live in poverty. Yes, most African, Asian and Latin American countries are capitalist, and they are poor, not because of socialism, but because capitalism has helped spread inequality, exploitation and corruption. Just remember, just because you are North American middle class person it does not mean that everybody under capitalism lives like you do. 2/3 of the people under capitalism live in poverty. Hardly the "prosperity" of billionaires and bankers.


> This can be said of any system. Again, people doing evil things. But for you as an
> atheist, isn't it difficult for you to justify the standard you are demanding?

What are you saying? Atheists have no sense of right and wrong? Are you assuming that only "God-fearing" people know the difference between right and wrong? Do you really think good and evil come only from God? That assumption presumes that God exists, but what happens if God does not exist? Does it mean that "anything" is allowed? If the only reason you have for being a good person is fear of God, then yours is a God that rules by fear. It is presumptious to assume that only the Christian God can give a sense of good and evil. If that were the case Christians would never do anything evil. I never saw God punish anyone, and I never met anyone who died and came back. The day that happens I will believe that God is the source of good and evil. But then fear of God dictates that it will be too late for me. So a circular logic takes place. I must live in fear of something that I can never prove whether it is true or not. So an atheist refuses faith, and the sense of right and wrong comes from a priori assumptions. For example, it is wrong to kill, it is wrong to exploit others, etc. Do not asume that atheist are intrinsically evil. Some of the best people I have met in my life were atheists. Religion had absolutely nothing to do with being good or bad.

> On what basis do you say a man can't exploit the weakness of others? Who says? Society? The world? By what authority do they say that? At the point of the gun? Then it boils down to who has the biggest gun. If there is no objective right or wrong, only a subjective one, then morals and ethics are up for grabs.

This is a matter of belief. A person can believe that it is OK to kill for money. That does not make it right. Everybody has a sense of right and wrong. If exploiting others is right, then do not feel bad when somebody comes and exploits you or your family. If it is OK for somebody to profit by using others, then it is OK for everybody to do the same. It is the final conclusion of the existentialist ethic. My actions make a statement about the whole world. If it is OK to be selfish for one person, then it is OK to be selfish for everybody.

> Who says what Rockefeller did was wrong? YOu?? Who are you to make that
> claim? Why is it wrong to support a cause you beieve in? Who determines the value
> of any cause? Is exploiting the poor wrong just because you don't like it or is there a
> higher value at play? If so, what is it?

Who says? Well, you can ask 6 million Jews and 8 million gypsies that died in the Holocaust. If ANY cause is acceptable, then there is nothing wrong with the Nazis.

Why is exploitation wrong? Because it goes against the one principle that nobody can deny: human beings are equal. How so? All human beings start out the same way: babies born naked and screaming. Nobody is born rich or poor. Parents might be rich or poor, but all babies are born with nothing. People are made rich or poor by the social structure they live under. If the social system allows an individual to use others for profit, then a social hierarchy arises in which some become very wealthy and many others become poor. The only way a person can make a profit from others is by not paying them a fair wage for their labour. If wages were perfectly fair, nobody could make a profit. But the extraction of plusvalue from other people's wages is what makes profits possible. If a social system allows poverty to occur, it has consequences such as poor housing, poor health care, poor education, etc. Then human beings suffer, and that is the ultimate consequence of exploitation. Now, if human suffering is OK, then the likes of predatory capitalists and nazis are acceptable. If human suffering is wrong, then those individuals are not acceptable.

As human beings we must make a choice, and indeed we do through our actions. Our ideology is nothing but empty words. It is only through actions that we ultimately display our true sense of right and wrong.