Übergeek 바둑이: he will sleep soundly knowing that his actions caused the deaths of 8 people.

Really?? He pulled the trigger? What is it with liberals who just wont hold anyone accountable for their own personal actions?

So when someone in Afghanistan burns an American flag, it is their fault that I kill some innocent Afghan over here??

Czuch: He knew the reaction that the burning of the Koran would produce. Their would be a similar reaction amongst zealot Christians if some Muslims held a trial for the Bible and then judged it guilty and burnt it.... .. yet there have been attacks on some Mosque's here based on some other Muslims being bad men.

(V): He knew the reaction that the burning of the Koran would produce.

So what?? Does that absolve them of their own actions?? Thats the point.... we are each responsible for our own actions. He is his own idiot for burning it, you could blame someone else for inflaming him couldnt you?

Czuch: After the cancelling of the previous burning knowing the reaction..... I'd call him more than an idiot. Yes what the rioters did was wrong and the killing was their doing. But why burn the Koran knowing that it will cause riots? As a 'man of God', I would thought he would have had some sense.


"yet he didnt mention anything about Bush enduring 9/11, why would he intentionally leave that one out?"


9/11 was not a military or economic disaster, or a war. It is not the same.

(V): 9/11 was not a military or economic disaster, or a war. It is not the same.

It is the same in the sense that it is something that placed a serious burden and focus of attention on the President.

Czuch: On attention grabbing.. granted. Yet that only logically led to Afghanistan.. he seemed to lose focus after that!!

(V): On attention grabbing.. granted. Yet that only logically led to Afghanistan.. he seemed to lose focus after that!!

Again, off the point of the topic. The point was that he was praising Obama and these others in the face of trying circumstances, and left out Bush and 9/11... was 9/11 not enough of a trying circumstance to be mentioned?

Czuch: .. actually you changed the point to this. I recon a certain Hurricane was more as such a trying circumstance.

9/11 was just a wake call to the matter of the USA leaving loose cannons around.

(V): But why burn the Koran knowing that it will cause riots?

There you go again.... do you know what the word 'cause' means? Nothing I do will cause a riot... only the people who actually riot 'cause' the riot themselves. We are each solely responsible for our actions. Its called personal responsibility, and liberals love to avoid it and to place false blame to make sure everyone feels so good about themselves.... 'its not your fault, it was that preacher that caused you to riot'!

Czuch: Yes I do know what the word means. It's like with the Orange loyalists from NI... when they did their marches they knew they would cause and get a reaction. They knew innocent lives by their actions would be at risk or lost.

But they didn't care.

Do you understand care?

(V): Nobody can say my actions caused you to do something, and it is not my responsibility what you do... these guys could have chosen not to riot if I do burn the Koran and they can choose to riot if I dont burn the Koran... its their ultimate choice, and they chose to excuse their actions on the fact that some guy burned a Koran, and their actions have no excuse!

Czuch: So if you crashed into my car due to you being on the phone and not paying attention to the road I wouldn't be after claiming against the insurance??

.... I wouldn't be after your details?

Czuch:

> What is it with liberals who just wont hold anyone accountable for their own personal actions?

The point is this. He had been asked not to burn the Koran because he would put other people at risk if he did so.

This reminds me of the Wikileaks man. He is accused of putting secret services people at risk for releasing those documents. Now he is crucified in the media and faces trials and prosecution of all sorts. So far nobody has died because of Wikileaks.

But this pastor was specifically told that if he burned the Koran it would undermine all the efforts in the Middle East. He was personally requested not to do it by Robert Gates. He went ahead and did it knowing fully well what would happen.

Maybe we can call him a provocateur. But his provocation did have lethal consequences. That is what I am trying to get at. It is like instigating somebody to violence. Of course the insurgents who infiltrated the protest are to blame for the killings, but the pastor should at least accept that he is responsible for trigerring that violence when there was really no need to do so.

Artful Dodger: Yes... many many cases over the last 1400 years odd since Muslims have been on the scene.

Artful Dodger:

> They burn our flag. If American't retaliated and killed a bunch of Muslims, I doubt you'd post something blaming the Muslims.

I think that terrorists are the second biggest idiots in the world. The only ones more stupid than them are satanists. If somebody burns the American flag, what is the point? It changes and achieves nothing.

> The pastor, idiot that he is, has every right to burn the Koran.

Then anyone has the right to burn anything. If somebody wants to burn the American flag, then they have a right to do so according to that logic. But then, burning books is the recourse of the ignorant and the fearful, just like flag burning is.

> He could be ignored. But the radical idiot Muslims think less of innocent lives than they do some made up book by some false prophet. They are nuttier than that pastor every was or will be.

I know a lot of good Christians who thinks it is OK to send war planes and send 400,000 Iraqis to their deaths. But then I think Jesus did not exist, and if he existed, he was a false prophet too, because the actions of Christians show that the Bible is wrong and made up of a bunch of self-righteous lies.

In fact, maybe I should just host my own Bible burning trial. I will put the Bible on trial, and hold it guilty of having caused a hell of a lot of religious wars, not just between Christians and Moslems, but also between Catholics and protestants. Then having found it guilty of war crimes, i will incinerate the Bible with kerosene. Then when Christians get mad and protest I will say: Why are you angry? The book was written by a false prophet, or even worse, false god.

If I went downtown here and burned a Bible in our central square, I am convinced I would be dead within minutes, because when it comes down to it, there are Christians who are fanatics too and who act out of fear and ignorance, and who will justify killing in the name of higher principles.

As an atheist, all I see are religious hypocrites. People who claim higher moral principles, but who conveniently put them away for the sake of money and power. That pastor burned the Koran, not to prove that he is a good christian, but for the notoriety he would gain. He did not care if people got angry or died because of his actions. He got his 15 minutes of fame, and 12 people are dead because of it.

Artful Dodger: Historically Jesus did not (why the Jewish do not recognise him as Messiah) fulfil all what was prophesied he would. In fact according to the Jewish historians another bloke came up as fulfilling the Messiah role better.. at least for the Jews.

.. The intepretation that many Christians hold is it is God's plan (who Jesus is the Son of and must obey the word of God.. him being the Father) to kill and destroy most humans on this planet (no accounting for other planets it must be said) ..

Revelation 21
5 He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making everything new!” Then he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.”
6 He said to me: “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To the thirsty I will give water without cost from the spring of the water of life. 7 Those who are victorious will inherit all this, and I will be their God and they will be my children. 8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”

.................. Rather violent that of our God isn't it?

http://www.armyofgod.com/


... Rather violent are they not?