Artful Dodger: So.. at last the companies will have to pay a fair wage to low paid workers instead of the government subsidising the American economy.... a fair point.

As for claim support to many, but you won't see the point!!

(V): Yeah, like the unions in Detroit that fought for a fair wage and managed to unemploy all the workers when the factories shut down. Bleeding the complain dry. That's the ticket.

Artful Dodger: skipping the point AgAiN ......

So, you are happy for companies to pay low wages and for the government to pick up the tab via food stamps and tax credits?

Yes or no?

(V): You had a point? Really? From what? What I posted was tongue-in-cheek. Besides, you're saying that minimum wage is a fair wage.

Artful Dodger:

> Yeah, like the unions in Detroit that fought for a fair wage and managed to unemploy all the workers when the factories shut down. Bleeding the complain dry. That's the ticket.

Was it the unions? No offense but that is a very dim view of what happened. I wonder if it was because the companies were greedy and decided to move manufacturing to countries where they pay workers a pittance. I wonder how many jobs went to China and the like. Here is one easy way to get around paying the minimum wage. Let's move all the factories to Third World countries. Over there workers get paid peanuts. The average American worker in the auto industry is getting paid $38 per hour. In China they pay $0.17 per hour. It takes no genius to see why Detroit went bust. Not only did they get around the union complaints, they also got around the minimum wage, fired a lot of qualified workers, and made more money by manufacturing cheaper. But then, I am sure you knew that.

Übergeek 바둑이: You always take the side against big companies regardless of facts. The big auto companies were losing billions and there was little they could do to cut costs. So your idea that they were greedy is, no offense, dim. What do you think they are in business for? Here's a news flash for ya: They want to make money and lots of it.

But they were losing money. The unions were demanding more money so to compensate, the autos they produced were of lesser quality. Enter the Japanese autos, better and costing less, you had the recipie for disaster.

And labor costs are huge. When you add in all the benefits and when you consider the pay given out to all the retired workers and their spouses, it adds up big time. When you're a company that is losing money, you don't have many options. Big labor refuses to budge and big management has no vision for the future. The quality of foreign auto surpasses the quality if made in the USA so what would you do?

Meanwhile you have a great example of union thuggery in the CWA (where I was once an assistant VP). While on strike, they resort to destroying company property and disrupting service to its customers. You have union thugs threatening the lives of those who would dare cross the picket lines and one moron even went so far as to use his young daughter and place her in front of a truck that was delivering supplies to the company.

When a company makes money, it's their money to do with as they see fit. You can negotiate with them for a fair wage but in the end, walk away and find another job if you don't like what they have to offer. I worked for the phone company and they paid plenty. Then benefits were excellent and I made a very decent wage. They even paid for my schooling when I started college. They allowed me to work nights so I could go to school during the day. And they paid for all my college costs while I worked for them.

And I was just an average joe worker in the repair department answering the phone for business customers with phone problems. I dispatched repair workers. There were thousands like me across the country. And each one could have up to 2500 a year for college and night school expenses.

Not bad for a greedy big company.