Artful Dodger: Earth to AD...the America you know no longer exists. It hasn't for some time. I can see that nothing I've said for the past 3 weeks has made a dent. lol Seriously, Americans in general need a new perspective, in my opinion. I'm afraid we're all headed down, down, down...with little hope of escaping from the Matrix (in the short run).

As to Obama's stimulus package, it doesn't seriously address this country's economic problems, I agree, but I'm not sure anything can short of an entire restructuring of how we do business (repealing NAFTA, stopping outsourcing & forcing companies to manufacture in America, reestablishing unions, etc.) And...in spite of its weaknesses, Obama's plan WILL help some people who NEED it! That means it is both more efficient & more ethical than Bush's bailout.

Artful Dodger: You can thank Bush, his illegal war & his oil-sipping buddies, not to mention Wall Street high-rollers...for that.

The Usurper:It goes back to Clinton.

Artful Dodger: It goes back to Reagan, who first set the record for government debt, before Bush Jr. broke his record.

But it really goes further than that...to Nixon, who removed the gold standard. Then back further, to Wilson, who signed the Federal Reserve into law.

Roosevelt tooks steps to help the economy. Clinton hurt the economy in the long run with Nafta, but nevertheless he balanced the budget, and provided a surplus...used up by Bush (and more!) to fund an illegal war.

The Usurper:He balanced the budget because the Republicans controlled congress.  They wouldn't let him spend all that surplus money. 

Obama's economic plan will go the way of Carter. 

Artful Dodger: Funny, they had no problem letting Bush spend it. And our economy is in far worse shape now than it was under Carter. Can Obama make it better? Very doubtful, because he won't address the core issues. Fiscal Conservatives should be impressed neither with Obama nor Bush nor Reagan, nor Nixon, nor Johnson, etc. I don't see how anyone can believe we are represented by either party, whether in Congress or in the Oval Office.

The Usurper: Bush is not the point.  Historical facts are historical facts.  Clinton was kept in check by the Republican congress.  Period.  And Clinton lifted the lid on the banks.  He's the one that opened the pandora's box and it began with him.  Others are responsible too but he began the whole mess. It's history.  It's clearly a fact and can't be disputed.  Bush has nothing to do with the point.  1999.  Bush wasn't president then. 

Artful Dodger: Trust me, I'm not defending Clinton. I know how much harm he did to the economy. But the budget was balanced during his administration...and without his cooperation, it couldn't have happened. If you prefer to think the Republican Congress muscled him, that's your prerogative. Again, I refer you to history. They didn't likewise "muscle" Bush. And Bush is as much a part of the point as is Clinton, and Reagan, etc. Narrow political boundaries hardly begin to address our predicament.

The Usurper:AGain, Bush has nothing to do with the question I was addressing.  It had ONLY to do with Clinton.  It's true that there was a Republican majority in Congress.  It's true that they made it very difficult, if not impossible for Clinton to go against their will.  They controlled the congress.  He had to tailor things to suit them or nothing could get done.  And it's also true that Clinton began the banking deregulation.  He convinced the republicans to go along with him, and they did.  They are at fault for this whole mess too.  But as I said, the question I was addressing had only to do with Clinton.  Bush isn't in the picture.

Artful Dodger: They over here changed the tax laws which affected the poor more then the rich. Brown was forces by the public uproar to amend the policy so that the poor did not lose out so much.

The America you know is in trouble, he's trying to fix it. Sure that might mean an increase in taxes in the short term, but TANSTAFL!!

If he fails, then your country will be in a bigger mess, even if the Repub's get in, it'll take a while for any new ideas or policies to come into effect. That's not a good idea, which may result in a longer recovery period.

And I don't see the problem with properly organised and regulated abortion. Better that then back street jobs like in the old days which resulted in baby and mother dying.

And to blame is ALL your governments that have refused or plain well couldn't be bothered to introduce proper regulation of your financial system.

Gordon Brown over here is facing a grilling over such lack of regulation, especially after we had a similar incident in the 80's (ie Black Monday) in which it was lack of regulation in the financial market and lack of regulation in certain aspects of the 'buying a house' market (guzumping [sp]) that caused the downfall back then. Also it must be noted that back then a boom system of fiscal policy was being used and like now.. the bubble burst.

How many times do we have suffer before the lessons are learnt?