(V): It's a cookbook! It's a cookbook!

Hey (V)ern, it's Earnest!

I knew it, the aliens are trying to fatten up our children! And look.. it's working! Perhaps working too well, because fighting aliens with clogged arteries could very well work in our favor.

(V): Typical government interference with free market forces. In many instances banks were pressured into making bad loans by government policy makers. Ask Barney Frank, he'll tell you, (actually no, he won't) And now they turn around to sue those banks because, well, a bad loan is a bad loan, no matter who is telling you to do it. A real estate lady tried talking me into getting a Fanny May loan so I could start making payments on a condo that I wasn't even interested in. ?? I said thanks, but no thanks, I wasn't comfortable borrowing money from an institution that essentially existed because of some governmental policy. She looked at me like I was a stupid rube, but that's okay because a few months later the morgage crises hit the fan.. well, something hit the fan, I was just glad I wasn't anywhere near the blowout.. know what ah mean?

Artful Dodger: Is the banana a fruit or a veggy..

I'm trying to figure this one out which without googling it. I think fruits have the seeds on the inside of the fruit itself, and veggies have their seeds somewhere else. The carrot makes its seeds up on the green part.. not sure, but I think that's right. Same with radishes. I remember having a garden with carrots and radishes once, but neglected it. I think eventually they both produced seeds up on the leafy part of the plant. The potato has its seeds on the skin.. again, I'm not sure but that seems right. The "eyes" of the potato (on the skin) are the seeds, aren't they?

So I'm going to say that fruits have their seeds inside of the fruit itself, while vegetables and grasses produce the seeds on the leafy parts of the plant.. or on the outside of the 'meaty' part of the plant. So that would make the banana a fruit.. ???

What about coconuts?

Iamon lyme: a coconut is white meat - like fish

"If the US Government was a family, they would be making $58,000 a year, they spend $75,000 a year, & are $327,000 in credit card debt. They are currently proposing BIG spending cuts to reduce their spending to $72,000 a year. These are the actual proportions of the federal budget & debt, reduced to a level that we can understand." - Dave Ramsey

Artful Dodger: yes but he is a just a christian right wing self made multimillionaire, so I am sure that those numbers are just spin




there now no else can try that approach

Best $100.00 investment I ever made, made an $8,000.00 difference in my net worth last year

and I didn't have to rely on the government or business owners to do it, how can that be?

Vikings: good principles work!

Vikings: The fact that the government can spend more that it has and keep going is not spin. It's the reason some people want government work, because they can make more than they can in a comprable private secter job, along with having more job security. A public secter job can only go belly up if the tax revenue for that particular job dries up, or if the private secter itself is damaged to the point where it can no longer provide tax revenue for any government job.. hopefully we can pull back before it reaches that point, but it is that point which is precisely what we are being warned about. We are not being warned about not being able to support someones pet project, we are being warned about a complete system wide shutdown. Killing the goose that lays all of them golden eggs won't get ya anymore of them eggs.. know what I mean?

The problem as I see it is not that there is no solution, the problem seems to be that people have been fooled into believing it can't be corrected because of the scale of the problem. What works on a small scale will work on a larger scale. It's worked before, so why all the confusion over what needs to be done?

Iamon lyme: Or, I suppose I could've just said "good principles work!"

Iamon lyme:

What's interesting is the government's explanation that by spending more money and then putting that money back into the economy, the economy is stimulated and people then spend, hire, invest, etc. When that happens, more taxes are generated and the government makes back it's initial investment and then some!

But then why are we so far it debt as a nation?

Because Keynesian economics doesn't work. Now why can't those pinheads in Washington figure that out?

Artful Dodger: You are starting from the wrong assumption. Logically, their primary target is to get reelected. That's how the game rules are written, and that's how they play it.
Any other 'targets' (general happyness, full employment, world control, whatever) are secondary, and are at best collateral.

Aganju: Yes, you are correct. And I don't see anything in Washington changing unless people start demanding and pressuring their reps. Those pinheads live in another world.

Any government big enough to give you everything you want is big enough to take away everything you have.

Nearly 40 percent of Europeans suffer mental illness
By Kate Kelland | Reuters – Sun, Sep 4, 2011...

LONDON (Reuters) - Europeans are plagued by mental and neurological illnesses, with almost 165 million people or 38 percent of the population suffering each year from a brain disorder such as depression, anxiety, insomnia or dementia, according to a large new study.

With only about a third of cases receiving the therapy or medication needed, mental illnesses cause a huge economic and social burden -- measured in the hundreds of billions of euros -- as sufferers become too unwell to work and personal relationships break down.

"Mental disorders have become Europe's largest health challenge of the 21st century," the study's authors said.

Artful Dodger:

"Mental Illness disorders are prevalent in the United States. Approximately 26 percent of Americans 18 and older, that is one in four adults suffer from a diagnosed mental disorder. Mental disorders are the leading cause of disability in the U.S. for ages 15-44. It is estimated that many people suffer from more than one mental disorder at a time."

"If mental illness statistics compiled by the World Health Organization (WHO) is to be believed around 25 percent of the world population suffers from some or the other mental illness at some point of life. This and other such statistics on mental health problems reveal how severe this problem has become over the period of time."
As for the cost in the USA:

"The National Institute of Mental Health (NIMH) conservatively estimates the total costs associated with serious mental illness, those disorders that are severely debilitating and affect about 6 percent of the adult population, to be in excess of $300 billion per year. This estimate is based on 2002 data from the Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration (SAMHSA), the Social Security Administration, and findings from the NIMH-funded National Comorbidity Survey – Replication (NCS-R). "

Obviously Europe is not alone in this. The world-wide estimated are at 25%, and the USA at 26%. That makes the USA no different from the average.

Our modern life is driven by overconsumption, overwork, war, economic crisis and political crisis. It comes as no surprise our societies are a mess.

Aganju: George Carlin sums up politicians and the myth of electing them very well.... The masters just use them as a means of population control.

Übergeek 바둑이: Figures from other organisations put the figure of people with mental illness higher, being 1 in 3 of all Americans. Stating that the NIMH figures are based on old data.

Though the danger through Victorian style stigmata and the lack of universal health care makes these figures more on a concern then in Europe, as many will never be diagnosed and/or given the treatment and care they deserve.

... Lifetime prevalence estimates put the US figures at about 57%

Or if you work in the CIA 100%

Aganju: That explains the motivation for making stupid decisions. Many of them are motivated by only a desire to excercise control and to keep their jobs.

The argument here doesn't hinge on no government vs complete government control. Government control and regulation are a good thing up to a point, but beyond that point it just gums up the works and doesn't help free enterprise to do what it naturally does all by itself. As I see it the real problem is when government tries to excercise too much control by inserting itself into the market, as though their involvement will somehow help a process that works best if left alone.

Data from various reports by medical analysts do confirm a link between being uninsured (or with low insurance) and mental health problems. That this is related to the lack of treatment for physical health problems, of a long or severe enough nature to have an impact on that persons quality of life.

Gotta love the lobbyists who pay for the current health system in the US to carry on so they can profit!!

Übergeek 바둑이: But this has nearly always been the case. In the history of the world, the above statement could have been said at many times in our history. What's the biggest factor that makes today so different?

(V): such as?

Or did you make that up?

Artful Dodger:
> What's the biggest factor that makes today so different?

This is the real finding in all this. We are no different than we always were. We had insanity, paranoia, depression and all the mental ills of our modern era in all eras of human history.

Think ofthe Roman Empire and its depravity and insanity. Or the depressed artists and philosophers of the past.

War, famine, imperialism, fascism, political crises, economic crises, manipulation of the masses. They have been there since we started farming and building cities.

The great difference today is that we are aware of it on a global scale. Modern means of communication make the insanity apparent almost instantly.

We also have other factors such as moderm pollution, which is different from pollution in the past. Prior to the 20th century pollution took the form of bacteria (due to poor sanitation and dranage systems) and lead poisoning (lead was heavily used in glass, ceramics, and piping for running water). Today our pollution is much more rich on organic chemicals that interact directly with our DNA (it is why ther is so much cancer today). For sure much of that pollution is damaging our brains too. In the past depression and insanity were heavily linked to lead posioning (Beethoven and Van Gogh are good examples). Now we know better and have eliminated a lot of the lead in our immediate environment. However, aromatic hydrocarbons from improper combustion of fossil fuels are everywhere. We have plasticizers in plastics, chloramine in water, pesticides and herbicides, antibiotics in food, etc. Many of these substances do things to our bodies that we don't even know about, and mass consumption means that just about everyone is consuming these substances.

Let's add tot his the high pace of modern life. High expectations of wealth and consumption add to our daily stress. We are bombarded with mass advertising, sensationalistic news headlines, images of war and violence, pornography, the constant insanity of stock and financial markets, the uncertainty of an ever faltering economy, etc. These things add up in our psyche. If a person is well balanced and healthy, they can absorb all the stressors and release them somehow. But if the surrounding chemical environment has somehow affected the brain, all the stressors can add up to many pathological psychiatric conditions. It comes as no surprise that 25% of the world will suffer from some mental health problem at some point.

Is there a solution? It would probably require a lot of research on all the factors that lead to these mental health problems, then aiming at eliminating each of these factors one by one (like we did with lead). Then it would need a rethinking of mass consumption and the use of chemical commodities that damage our bodies. We would have to make a more peaceful world and take measures to stop exposing our children and youth to violence and pornography. Considering the lack of willingness in our governments to change anything (as we saw recently with the video game legislation failure), change will be slow.

(V): wow, that's depressing.

I suppose if someone isn't already bummed out, there are plenty of facts and figures to remedy that situation.

I'm not only not responsible for my actions, I'm also not responsible for how I feel.

Iamon lyme: Actually I do hold myself responsible for both my actions and my feelings. After all, feelings follow (are caused by) actions and not the other way around.

One of the big lies out there is that we have no control over how we feel.. that's a big old load of alien hooey. It's why so many people who don't really need it (some people do need it) get suckered into taking anti-depressants. And speaking of aliens.. when global economics melt down into an incomprehensible mess, that's when the aliens will make their move.

Übergeek 바둑이: Right, as if the corps using dodgy chemicals are going to do that. They will use what is cheaper until they either get told to change (like with CFC's) or... someone manages to prove in court that the chemicals are harmful to the organic chemistry of our bodies and/or the environment.

After watching a company and one of it's so called new wave of drugs that is supposed to be helpful to many people be found to be not or harmful, many side effects buried in reams of results, or not told to the respective government regulator... and yet sold as the next best thing to sliced bread.

"video game legislation failure"

Never gonna really work. Too many factors outside regulation to make any real effort except branding an age on it worthwhile.

Übergeek 바둑이: OK, that makes sense and I was thinking too of the stress under the Roman Empire. There are probably cultures where factors that lead to depression etc are much less. What do we know about them? I'm thinking of Hawaiian culture. I have a friend and we joke that he's always on Hawaiian time (born and raised there) and he takes things in stride. For some cultures, "I'll be there Tuesday" means whenever I get there, it will still be Tuesday. In my world, it's "I'll be there on Tuesday at 4pm" Deadlines, competition, evaluations, on and on. No wonder we're all going nuts!

I wonder if that's why some in Australia went on a "walk about." Just to get away, no deadline, no pressures, no plans, just come what may.

(V): ya made it up then. Ok, we get it.

"Massive government spending hasn't helped us now and massive government spending did not get us out of the great depression. In fact, government interference in the marketplace and New Deal policies extended the depression by seven years and hurt millions."

"Obama is still suffering from the Speech Illusion, the idea that he can come down from the mountain, read from a Teleprompter, cast a magic spell with his words and climb back up the mountain, while we scurry around and do what he proclaimed.

The days of spinning illusions in a Greek temple in a football stadium are done. The One is dancing on the edge of one term. "

gotta love it when even a liberal lib sees the light!

"I was hours early for a flight and stuck in a relatively small terminal crammed with people. Only one area in the whole wing had empty seats; an unused gate that contained a TV blaring the CNN broadcast of Obama's Labor Day speech at full volume.

So it was either sit underneath a full-volume broadcast of our fearless president bellowing out his latest hollow promises, or the hellish alternative: retreat to gates full of screaming five year-old children, all of them jacked up on sugar and bawling their eyes out because it was the end of Labor Day weekend and their cruel parents were dragging them home from Disney world.

I ended up choosing the screaming children."

(I don't have to name the source, all I have to say is "various souces")

"Over the Labor Day weekend, I went to a number of events in the Hamptons. At all of them, Obama was discussed. At none of them - that's none - was he defended. That was remarkable. After all, sitting around various lunch and dinner tables were mostly Democrats. Not only that, some of them had been vociferous Obama supporters, giving time and money to his election effort. They were all disillusioned.

Let me call the roll. I am talking about are writers and editors, lawyers and shrinks, Wall Street tycoons and freelance photographers, hedge funders and academics, run-of-the-mill Democrats and Democratic activists. They were all politically sophisticated, and just a year ago some of them were still vociferous Obama supporters. No more."


So you see libs, I (and others on here - conservatives) were right about Obama ALL ALONG. And finally there are some honest liberals that are not only beginning to see the truth about Obama, they are honest enough to state what they now believe. He's a huge disappointment.

But sadly, some of you libs are stuck in the rut and refused to come out.

I'm on disability now from AT&T. Three years ago I was making $150,000 a year as a Global Account Manager for Cingular, then I had to go on disability shortly before AT&T took over. I paid for the best health coverage available and also always paid for supplemental disability insurance. I've been on disability and under medical treatment since then. You'd think with my career path, income and savings, and my commitment to always get the most and best insurance I could I should be in great shape, right? I'm now completely broke, I have no retirement savings left, can't pay for my kids college, and my copay on just ONE of my prescriptions has gone from $150 to $1254 for a one-month supply, so I can't even afford the prescription I need to stay alive.

I don't care how good your job is, how secure it is, how great your insurance is, or how much you have in savings and retirement accounts, YOU ARE NOT COVERED. The contractors your company works with (i.e., United Healthcare for Medical Ins., Hewett for Benefits Mgmt., Sedgewick for Disability Mgmt., CVS for drug benefits, etc.) will pull every trick in the book to reduce/deny coverage. Their systems are set up to force you to monitor a constant barrage of paperwork and forms, and if you miss any required response notices, they will permanently drop you from benefits/coverage, and you're screwed, forever.

WASHINGTON — The largest medical insurers and drug companies spent 41% more on lobbying this year as Congress began debate on an overhaul of health care, which may include a public insurance plan the industries oppose. The largest medical insurers and drug companies spent 41% more on lobbying this year as Congress began debate on an overhaul of health care, which may include a public insurance plan the industries oppose.

I say it was not Obama that caused companies to increase insurance costs in the USA, but the extra money the Health companies are spending on making sure they profit while people live in pain, go bankrupt.. or die.

This is great that people in America (practising nimby's) love their neighbours!!

Drug and insurance companies say they are merely seeking to educate politicians and the public. But with industry lobbyists swarming over Capitol Hill ‑ there are six registered healthcare lobbyists for every member of Congress ‑ a partner in the most powerful lobbying firm in Washington acknowledged that healthcare firms' money "has had a lot of influence" and that it is "morally suspect".

Reform groups say vast spending, and the threat of a lot more being poured into advertisements against the administration, has helped drug companies ensure there will be no cap on the prices they charge for medicines ‑ one of the ways the White House had hoped to keep down surging healthcare costs.

Insurance companies have done even better as the new legislation will prove a business bonanza. It is not only likely to kill off the threat of public health insurance, which threatened to siphon off customers by offering lower premiums and better coverage, but will force millions more people to take out private medical policies or face prosecution.

"It's a total victory for the health insurance industry," said Dr Steffie Woolhander, a GP, professor of medicine at Harvard University and co-founder of Physicians for a National Health Programme (PNHP).

"What the bill has done is use the coercive power of the state to force people to hand their money over to a private entity which is the private insurance industry. That is not what people were promised."

PNHP blames a political process it says is corrupted by millions of dollars poured into the election campaigns of members of Congress and influencing the discourse about health reform by funding advertising campaigns, supposedly independent studies and patients rights organisations that press the industry's interests.

Corruption in washington approved by those who say it is wrong.

.. never happens

Erik Telford, AFP's director of online strategy and a leading figure on the right in the deployment of the internet as a political tool, exhorted Tea Party members to attack politicians through their blogs.

"Pick your least favourite public official and beat the crap out of him every day," Telford told the audience. "It's fun, and people will start to notice and you will have a tremendous impact.

"The way to beat the left is to link more and more to one another and to link to articles that are in tune with our ideology and that will push the articles to the top of Google search.""

An idea funded by the Koch brothers

(V): Why those clever Republicans! I wonder, why hasn't the left thought of doing that? Cudos to those intelligent and highly innovative Republicans for coming up with something entirely new. Maybe the left should try doing something like that.

(V): It's not the job of the government to steal money from people and give it to others. That's Robin Hood's job.

(V): "This is great that people in America love their neighbours!!"

How do you figure it's 'loving your neighbour' if you don't have a choice?

Artful Dodger: Even Robin Hood must have taken a cut of the profits for himself and his merry men. You know, operating costs such as mutton, wine, and a little something to keep Maid Marian happy. Not exactly ethical for anyone to be acting as an unofficial middle man, but hey.. it's a living.

Iamon lyme: Robin Hood only stole from the rich. I wonder if they were nasty rich people or just regular rich people? Anyway, Obama want's to steal from everyone.

And why doesn't congress have to be on the same health insurance plan as we the people? If we're their bosses, why do they get to decide their own raises?

They are the opposite of Robin. They steal from the working class and keep the money for themselves!

Artful Dodger: Exactly. The causes they supposedly stand for are actually just conduits for what they are really after.. power and money.

I know how cynical that sounds, but when I see it happening time after time after time, I can't come to any other conclusion. Al Gore selling his snake oil (carbon credits) for curing global warming. Obama trying to win favor with the left wingnuts who think health care funds grow on trees.. or should grow on trees, I don't know because I can't figure out how their minds work. Raising taxes for schools (do it for the children) when it's obvious that throwing money at the teachers unions has done nothing to actually help those kids do better in school.. the list goes on and on. The people at the top of this game know exactly what they are doing. It's the people they supposedly represent who wholeheartedly buy into it without thinking it through.

Iamon lyme: The worst idea ever was public service employee unions. For a number of reasons, I'd like to see their power minimized. It's our $$

Artful Dodger: Would you say that if you were a member of public service employee unions?

The Col: That's hardly the point. But in answer to your question, yes I would.

Soon after I published an article questioning the global-warming orthodoxy, the world's foremost hypocrite, Al Gore, informed anyone who still listens to him that my position is akin to racism. The wise course of action would be to ignore the rants of a man who desperately needs the world to remain fearful of carbon, the element on which all life on earth is based. If that fear were to vanish, how would he continue to rake in the millions needed for the purchase of his next beach house?

From the "They can't really be this stupid - can they?" category, an urban anti-violence group in Buffalo, NY conducted a gun "buyback" - targeting Nerf guns. Yes, Nerf guns - the spring-loaded children's toys that fire harmless, spongy little projectiles.

Seems that these simpletons believe that "a toy gun today" invariably leads to a "real gun tomorrow."

One parent said that if the kids have Nerf guns, "Then there's no fear holding the real gun when they get older. We want to put that fear back into our children."

Fear? How about putting some responsibility and discipline into your children instead, so they can responsibly handle guns to defend their freedom when they get older?

Our freedom was bequeathed to us by our Founders, who fought an armed revolution against the British to secure it. James Madison, who wrote in Federalist #46 that Americans have "the advantage of being armed, which [they] possess over the people of almost every other nation" must be rolling in his grave.

Artful Dodger: You "published an article questioning the global-warming orthodoxy"

and Al Gore took notice?

The Col: hahaha, that is how I read it as well....

The Col: You've got to be kidding me. You liken global warming deniers to racists. Amazing.