Universal Eyes: Let me put it this way... Over here one council cancelled the warden system for it's sheltered OAP accommodation. Those that moved there understanding they would have a warden now found that service cancelled, and the ability to live where they were in some cases severely impaired to the point that some had to go into care homes.

One supporter of this move complained about wardens helping old folk out of hours.

I didn't know caring was a crime these days.

(V): I am saying that we already do have some government PAID health care, but the treatment is from the same private care that insurance people use. (except some veterans care and some others)

So, yes of course the government is perfectly capable of paying for my health care, but I do not have any confidence in them running the whole health care industry or them running their own version of it and to compete with private health care. But if they want to try that, then fine, just like the postal service sucks, so will their health programs.

But in general, I am against socialism for America, and my main focus is to keep us from bleeding to death one cut at a time from more and more bits of socialized programs being implemented.

(V): Let me clarify to, that a lot of the "FREE" care that people with no health coverage gets is recieved from private health providers but is paid for from higher fees to those with health coverage, and NOT from the government. Which might seem bad at first glance, but to me it is better to have people who use the services cover instead of the government taking from me to pay for the uncovered.

Like they do for education, even though I have never had any children, my government still takes my money to pay for it

Czuch: check your property tax breakdown, 6 1/2% of mine goes to a hospital that is the main stop for the uninsured

Vikings: ahhhhh..... well, at least it isnt all going to the education of kids I dont have....


...and V, before you say anything..... I do understand that a healthy, well educated population is a good thing for our country, even at the expense of those with no kids or who use very little medical services.

Czuch: oh, I'll bet there is the highest percentage going to the school district, mine is

(V): Maybe with your vast educational and reading experience you can answer me this question.....


(I know you dont like hypothetical) But lets assume that the whole world were united under one system similar to the UK.... the middle class gets bigger, the poor gets smaller, as do the wealthy.... over time we are all pretty much middle class, right? Then what? When Paul is gone, who do you rob to pay Peter? Once there are no more poor people and no more rich people, then what?

(V):  you aren't very well versed in Us politics or its history.   All the experts agree that the efforts to counter the effects of the depression actually prolonged it.

Universal Eyes:    A complete cut and paste.  How about using your own words?  Either that or just provide a link.

The government wants single payer insurance - that IS the goal

they lie through their false teeth.

Baby left to die for being 'too young'

NEWS.com.au

9 September 2009

A DEVASTATED mother claims doctors refused to treat her pre-mature baby because it was born two days early.

A DEVASTATED mother claims doctors refused to treat her premature baby because it was born two days early.

The tiny boy from the UK - born 21 weeks and five days into her pregnancy - died just two hours after being born, The Daily Mail reports.

Sarah Capewell, who has suffered five miscarriages previously, said she went into early labour and was told her newborn would be dead once delivered.

But after discovering her son, Jayden, had a strong heart beat and was moving his arms and legs, she called doctors and begged them to help.

Ms Capewell said doctors refused, saying medical guidelines state that "babies born before 22 weeks are not viable and are not to be helped".

She claims doctors at James Paget Hospital in Norfolktold told her that they would have tried to save the baby if he had been born two days later, at 22 weeks.

According to the Daily Mail, she told one paediatrician, "You have got to help", only for the man to respond: "No we don't."

"When I went into labour I was told he would be born dead, disabled and his skin would most likely be peeling off, in actual fact he was perfect," she wrote on her website Justice for Jayden.

"As you can see from his pic he was born alive, he was responsive and lived without help for nearly 2 hours.

"Reguardless of this doctors refused to come and see him let alone consider helping him."

A hospital official said it not t blame for setting the nation's guidelines and "like other acute hospitals, we follow national guidance".

Ms Capewell is now campaigning to make the Government to change the law.

"This is down to government legislation stating that babies born before 22 weeks are not viable and are not to be helped," she said.

"Now I'm asking for your help in changing legislation so other families don't have to suffer unnessisarily."

Tuesday:  I agree!  And that fact was clearly apparent during this so called debate over whether President Obama should be allowed to address school children about doing their best in school.  The right-wing "shock jocks" polluting our airways ought to have no credibility now.

Artful Dodger: No they don't, that is a complete lie. The 'experts' disagree, and because of WWII they've been arguing (pro repub's and pro demo's) since. AS WWII (I'll say this one more time) interfered with a pure run of data. IF WWII had not happened then there would be the ability to make a full analysis of the great depression.

But WWII did happen.

Czuch: In some respects Czuch, your constitution contains socialist (of a type) values..

btw.. Are you trying to tell me that the Republican mind still thinks in McCarthy style ways? I thought that horror died decades ago, and further died when the Berlin wall fell (as in the end of the cold war)...

Why can't you do as we.. private and public working side by side?

Czuch: Wrong. It'll never happen, companies would have to be gone as such. And I cannot see any reason why that would happen.

(V): Well it seems the goal to me.... make everyone the same/ equal.... all the same care and education etc, and pay for it from taxing the wealthy, and then the wealthy are not so and the poor are not so.... you tell me where it all leads then?

(V): Why can't you do as we.. private and public working side by side?



We already do... but that is not the end game, the end game is just a swap of power from private elites to public elites, in the end the people are still beholden....

Ferris Bueller: If you say so.... I think Bam did have an initial plan to lobby the children for his agenda, and if it wasnt for the right wing talk radio crowd there to make sure that didnt happen, then it would have happened

So in the end, what was it all about anyway??? A big pep talk from the commander in chief???

Got to admit Bam is a good speaker and motivator, but that does not a leader make.... but if you want to get all teary eyed over him talking about how not having a father actually made him a stronger person.... or was he saying it was a negative thing, really



well anyway, thats typical liberal talk out of both sides of your mouth, dont offend anyone, make everyone feel happy, there is no real right or wrong its all good....

Czuch: Sorry, but that is absolute nonsense. People here still fight to goto certain universities and colleges. I believe alot of Americans get scholarships at Oxford and Cambridge don't they? Rowing and all. Certain colleges specialise in certain fields or, have special depts that reflect the demand for specific skills in that area. We have Private and Public schools, Boarding schools, etc as the need and dedication arises.

We have national Private Health companies.. over 50 off them... not thousands.. All that complexity and having to monitor them.. that's why they want you HR Republicans to support them. NHS trusts that cover counties, live medical record systems so doc's can see each others notes to make better decisions. Private works with Public. And from only 32p per day.. Just about $200. But complaints have been filed regarding over pricing against some companies... such is a matter of trading standards and possible court.

And no... No elites, wages are set, limits and all by government in the NHS. Doesn't mean rubbish pay, doc's here can easily earn $200K+

(V): but sadly the ones who do the donkey work IE: the nurses get a pittance

Snoopy: I cannot agree with that, I know it didn't use to be that way (mum was a SRN and use to earn good money just doing two nights.. as much as a week of days) .. I know the gov has a tendency to listen to the nurses and midwife reps...

I think it's more a case of how qualified they are, and what speciality (if any they have).

I was right....

Pay scales for nurses/midwifes range from £13.2K to £65K+

http://www.nhscareers.nhs.uk/details/Default.aspx?Id=4

+ upto nearly £7K in London allowance

Czuch:   With Obama, it's small steps to his indoctrination ideas.  The parents objected to the followup questions suggested by the White House.  Even so, most people no longer trust the White House and view what ever they do with suspecion.  Tonight is Obamas make it or break it moment.  I say he breaks it. 

I've never heard someone lie through their teeth so much

Vikings:  I just wanna smack the smile off the Speaker's plastic face.  She's such a two-face lying hypocrite. 

I predict that many points in his speech will go over ok but other points will backfire.  Never threaten the people you want on your side.  Big mistake.

Artful Dodger: they will only go over to the people who get their indoctrination from the main stream drive by's. Anybody that is informed can find holes in almost anything he said or like the gentleman from S.C. said, "That is a lie"!. but the look on miss jack-o-lantern face was priceless at that moment

Vikings:  that's a good name for her! 

Published: September 9, 2009

Following is the prepared text of President Obama’s speech to Congress on the need to overhaul health care in the United States, as released by the White House.
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Madame Speaker, Vice President Biden, Members of Congress, and the American people:

When I spoke here last winter, this nation was facing the worst economic crisis since the Great Depression. We were losing an average of 700,000 jobs per month. Credit was frozen. And our financial system was on the verge of collapse.

As any American who is still looking for work or a way to pay their bills will tell you, we are by no means out of the woods. A full and vibrant recovery is many months away. And I will not let up until those Americans who seek jobs can find them; until those businesses that seek capital and credit can thrive; until all responsible homeowners can stay in their homes. That is our ultimate goal. But thanks to the bold and decisive action we have taken since January, I can stand here with confidence and say that we have pulled this economy back from the brink.

I want to thank the members of this body for your efforts and your support in these last several months, and especially those who have taken the difficult votes that have put us on a path to recovery. I also want to thank the American people for their patience and resolve during this trying time for our nation.

But we did not come here just to clean up crises. We came to build a future. So tonight, I return to speak to all of you about an issue that is central to that future – and that is the issue of health care.

I am not the first President to take up this cause, but I am determined to be the last. It has now been nearly a century since Theodore Roosevelt first called for health care reform. And ever since, nearly every President and Congress, whether Democrat or Republican, has attempted to meet this challenge in some way. A bill for comprehensive health reform was first introduced by John Dingell Sr. in 1943. Sixty-five years later, his son continues to introduce that same bill at the beginning of each session.

Our collective failure to meet this challenge – year after year, decade after decade – has led us to a breaking point. Everyone understands the extraordinary hardships that are placed on the uninsured, who live every day just one accident or illness away from bankruptcy. These are not primarily people on welfare. These are middle-class Americans. Some can't get insurance on the job. Others are self-employed, and can't afford it, since buying insurance on your own costs you three times as much as the coverage you get from your employer. Many other Americans who are willing and able to pay are still denied insurance due to previous illnesses or conditions that insurance companies decide are too risky or expensive to cover.

We are the only advanced democracy on Earth – the only wealthy nation – that allows such hardships for millions of its people. There are now more than thirty million American citizens who cannot get coverage. In just a two year period, one in every three Americans goes without health care coverage at some point. And every day, 14,000 Americans lose their coverage. In other words, it can happen to anyone.

But the problem that plagues the health care system is not just a problem of the uninsured. Those who do have insurance have never had less security and stability than they do today. More and more Americans worry that if you move, lose your job, or change your job, you'll lose your health insurance too. More and more Americans pay their premiums, only to discover that their insurance company has dropped their coverage when they get sick, or won't pay the full cost of care. It happens every day.

One man from Illinois lost his coverage in the middle of chemotherapy because his insurer found that he hadn't reported gallstones that he didn't even know about. They delayed his treatment, and he died because of it. Another woman from Texas was about to get a double mastectomy when her insurance company canceled her policy because she forgot to declare a case of acne. By the time she had her insurance reinstated, her breast cancer more than doubled in size. That is heart-breaking, it is wrong, and no one should be treated that way in the United States of America.

I tell you right now.... I was instrumental in getting Olympia Snow to speak at my high school graduation 29 years ago, and I have been a supporter of her for many years, but if she caves on this one, I will personally spit at her feet!

Czuch:  Obama will get something but this whole thing will undo his Presidency.  It's in the cards. ;)

".....But what we've also seen in these last months is the same partisan spectacle that only hardens the disdain many Americans have towards their own government. Instead of honest debate, we've seen scare tactics. Some have dug into unyielding ideological camps that offer no hope of compromise. Too many have used this as an opportunity to score short-term political points, even if it robs the country of our opportunity to solve a long-term challenge. And out of this blizzard of charges and counter-charges, confusion has reigned.

Well, the time for bickering is over. The time for games has passed.

(APPLAUSE)

Now is the season for action. Now is when we must bring the best ideas of both parties together and show the American people that we can still do what we were sent here to do. ..."

Artful Dodger:  That's all the Republicans care about is destroying this presidency.  Well its not going to work!

Ferris Bueller: Well by the standing ovations, I recon both sides in congress liked what he said. And by talk with everyone in congress and the senate, it looks like a plan has been formed.

As he said.. build on what works and reform what doesn't. Common sense really

(V): You mean u missed one side of the aisle sitting on their hands or holding up papers through most of the speech.  In addition one idiot congressman yelled out "You lie!" during the Pres. speech.  In case you didn't notice,  those were the Republicans. They only care about destroying this president.

If President Obama wants to pass reform, he will have to do it w/ Democrats only, & they are not lockstep.

Ferris Bueller: I've not sat through all of it yet.. bit early before I have my second cuppa

You'll always get idiots in all parties. Blinkered people that choose ideology over what needs to be done. From what I gather Obama has listened to his party as well as the Republicans... those that want to work with him anyway.

Well one thing can be said no matter what.. He's being a better Pres then Bush because he is listening. Not to just the parties but those (such as doc's and nurses) who have working knowledge of the problems.

... what gets me by the speech... Obama wants to make the health insurance market more competitive, he wants to end cancelling insurance for silly reasons (by those who get paid commission on finding ways not to pay out)... more preventive medicine.

What are the objections to this by Republican hard liners? I thought competitive markets were an idol of Republican hard liners.

.."more competition and more choice.... accountability.. Non profit option to keep insurance companies honest in the insurance exchange, no-one will be forced to choose it.. believe less then 5% of people will sign up.. self sufficient scheme by premiums.. "

And this is bad??

And yes I heard the "you lie" Ferris... ... Lot of booing at the bloke as well.

(V): I agree with you about Obama's approach to listen to all sides, but the problem is that the opposition doesn't give a rat's ass about listening to him.  They would rather listen to radical right talk shows & call him names than do what is right for the country.  The pres. now needs to spell out his plan for reform like he did tonight & stick by it.  The Republicans have had their fun.  It's time for the Democrats to govern.

(V): Here is the problem.... to many on the right, it is just same old

He gives a great speech, says all the right things... you noticed when he said something like "we have to work together, compromise both directions" then everyone on both sides of the isle stand up an applaud. But the problem is, that does not happen..... with democrats like Pelosi in control, they have never once given any consideration to republican ideas or amendments

So to us, it is just a speech, with good sound bites, but the reality that most average people dont understand, is that there are many hidden things in the democrats plans, plans that on the serface seem like plans we can all embrace, but that when republicans try to add things to make sure certain bad elements dont happen, they get squished like tiny bugs by the democrats in charge.


I personally dont know tiny details.... but you could tell by the reaction, when Bam said that "no ilegal aliens would benefit from our health care system" thats when i think the guy said "lies", its just that I am so sure that there are so many parts of this plan that go beyond the veneer of this speech, many parts that need to be worked out better, and it seems to me like the democrats are not willing to compromise at all with many of the republicans concerns


Even Ferris can probably admit that there must be more to all this than meets the eye of the average American???

Ferris Bueller: The Republicans have had their fun. It's time for the Democrats to govern.

Problem is, you can tell from his speech, that even Bam has some concerns about the direction from the "progresives" want to take on this issue... like he is really hoping that congress will pull this thing a bit more to the right, but that the "progressive elites" like Pelosi wont let that happen... even Bam seems to understand that a full blown soialist agenda is not what America needs.... but too many in the democrat party are simply full blown socialists

..oh yeah too, what was that he said about our health care being as good as what they give themselves??????

I tell you Ferris, if your beloved democrats ever have the guts to put themselves into the same playing field as they are shoving down our throats, I promise to switch my allegiance to your side of the isle forever!!!!

Ferris Bueller: As I read around a bit, it seems like "forced unionization" is one of the many republican concerns here, something that the dems need to compromise on somehow.... its not that we are against health care reform, its just that we want it to be responsible, and not just done to get it done.....

its one of those, be careful what you wish for, kind of things, reform health care, yes, have mounds of unplanned consequences because it got rushed through by socialist elites, NO!

Ferris Bueller: The man had done nothing but ram policies down the American's throat without anybody knowing what they are, he has listened to NOBODY, He had placed lawbreakers, hypocrites,socialists and bigots throughout the government, he had exploded the deficit and debt to a breaking point and wants to go further, that is what the republicans are done with,

Czuch:

> they have never once given any consideration to republican ideas or amendments

If that were true, the American government would have been completely paralized during the Bush administration!

> the reality that most average people dont understand, is that there are many hidden
> things in the democrats plans, plans that on the serface seem like plans we can
> all embrace, but that when republicans try to add things to make sure certain bad
> elements dont happen, they get squished like tiny bugs by the democrats in charge.

And the Republicans NEVER did that when they were in charge?

> I personally dont know tiny details.... but you could tell by the reaction, when Bam
> said that "no ilegal aliens would benefit from our health care system" thats when i
> think the guy said "lies"

I imagine they could do what we have here in Alberta, Canada. Everyone get a healthcare card. Without the card you get no service. Illegal immigrants cannot get cards and tourists have to present travel insurance, or pay up front. That takes care of much of the problem.

Simply deny service to illegals. People will say "what do you do with the thousands of people who illegally enter to work and get sick?" I would answer: Legalize them all and let them pay taxes like everyone else. Then they qualify for healthcare services. Canada did that starting in the 80s. The government liberalized much of the immigration policy and a lot of illegal immigrants became legalized. I know of at least three cases and those people are now tax payers like myself.

> the democrats are not willing to compromise at all with many of the republicans
> concerns

At this point the only way healthcare reform will fly is if Democrats compromise with Republicans. I am sure that keeping George W. Bush's tax cuts in place will be on the cards. Republicans will use this issue to ensure that there is no rolling back of those cuts, as well as issues such as gun control, defense spending and foreign policy against the rising left in Latin America.

Vikings:

> The man had done nothing but ram policies down the American's throat without
> anybody knowing what they are, he has listened to NOBODY, He had placed
> lawbreakers, hypocrites,socialists and bigots throughout the government, he had
> exploded the deficit and debt to a breaking point and wants to go further, that is
> what the republicans are done with,

In this respect one could easily write:

"George W. Bush had done nothing but ram policies down the American's throat without anybody knowing what they were, he listened to NOBODY, He placed lawbreakers, hypocrites, fascists and bigots throughout the government, he had exploded the deficit and debt to a breaking point and wanted to go further, that is what the Democrats were done with."

How quicly everyone forgets that George W. Bush inherited a surplus from Bill Clinton, and turned it into the biggest deficit in history. Now it is up to Obama to fix the fiscal disaster left behind by 8 years of mismanagement hidden behind the veneer of the War on Terror.

If people are going to talk about fiscal irresposibility, they should give credit where credit is due!

Ferris Bueller: It's basically sour grapes. I think I saw McCain even giving a thumbs up to Obama, over certain items he knew needed to be sorted. The health firms have been committing daylight robbery and people in the USA support that, companies basically causing the deaths and pain of USA people, and those hardliner righties support it.

Not nice to think that some Americans do not give a damn that fellow Americans are dying and suffering because of profit making.

Czuch: Like what? And are you saving that the average American is stupid, and that Republicans like yourself are smarter???

Vikings: Absolute rubbish. He was ELECTED by the people of America on the basis of his policies as stated before the election. Is there a problem with Democrats being elected? You don't want a one party dictatorship do you.. Moaning about a certain type of socialist, yet at the same time wanting the same.... Is that what you want???

Also.. Pres Bush ran up the budget deficit.. you didn't complain then.

Vikings:  What is the basis for making such sweeping conclusions about Obama?  Where do you get your information?

Ferris Bueller: your kidding

(V): he was elected on the promise of giving everybody who made under 250,000 a tax cut, in fact all he had done is run up the deficit 4 times in 6 months as to what bush did and he had a war, and now that he has rammed this foolish spending down everybody's throat the democrats themselves are divided about him,check the polls, he has the second fastest rate of fallen poll numbers since they have been recorded, he will go down in history as the best presidential failure.
If a democrat is elected then so be it but don't take that as a blank check to do whatever without being questioned. democrats and independents are waking up now