Undertaker.: Now, i see you don't defend it. So, do you defend anything or only know speak ill of all ideas (and create tournaments and more tournaments and bad tournaments lol)?

He does defend the Glicko system if you are not ill and can read. :-)

Undertaker.: AbigailII just pointed out some flaws in the system you were proposing (which, by the way, I also think was preetty weak at some points)
Then took the opportunity to present once more the case for Glicko as a system that already covered some of thos flaws and even addressed the original this last problem you brought because in Glicko, in order to keep a good ranking, you must keep playing or it will decrease because you don't have many recent games...

I'd also like to see other rating systems in place at BK, but seems to me that this discussion is being missdirected because of some missunderstandings about some of the previous messages...

pauloaguia, Constellation36: Ah, i never understood what she wanted say with glicko and i didn't know that system. Well, now i saw my mistake and i must offer excuses to Abigaill.

When I create new games in the "waiting games" section, I always choose random colors. When I accept waiting games from the list, I almost always go with those that have colors set to "random". So, in the long run you would expect the randomness to even out and I would have an equal amount of games with each color.

Now, as you probably know, some games here are very color-biased. As I browse through the games statistics, I find that these games give one side an overall score of approximately 60% or more:
Horde Chess (white 74%)
Cheversi (black 68%)
Maharajah Chess (b 64)
Mancala (w 64)
Pahtum (w 62)
Hasami Shogi (w 62)
Swap Five in Line (crosses 61%)
Battleboats Plus (w 60)
Knight Fight (w 60)
Tablut (w 60)
Swap Five in Line is a little complicated because you have the option to change sides after the first move, so I'll leave it out here.

That leaves nine game types that are very color-biased. When I look at the games I have played of these game types (always choosing "random colors"), they add up to 107 games combined. Of these I've had the "good color" 46 times and the "bad color" 61 times.

My grasp of binomial distribution is a little rusty, but if I get it right, the probability of such an unequal distribution should be less than 10%. So my question is: Is there some kind of trick than I'm missing (and that some of my opponents are not)? Is there some crooked way of side-stepping the randomness?

pedestrian:Just a notice. Knight fight is a bit special. I would say black is slight better. 60% wins for white is just because lots of people dont know how to play properly.

I dont think there is some way how to cheat.

lukulus:

Yes, I suppose these percentages only give a very shallow picture of the possible color-biases. That was why I included several games, but maybe Knight Fight should have been left out.

Come to think of it, I've had a few games where people would take the challenge, then cancel the game immediately after. Is it possible (maybe only for paying members) to cancel a game when you got the "wrong" color, and avoid having the game rated?

if you have someone on block can they still add you to there friends list?

if so shouldnt that option be removed

pedestrian: 10% is still a relatively high probability. It means that one out of every 10 Brainking users will get such an unequal distribution or worse. You were just unlucky. As for the other question, yes, you can delete any game (non-tournament) within the first 2 moves, and it won't count for rating or statistics.

lukulus: Actually, white does have an advantage in Knight Fight due to starting the game. If black ends up unable to move, white will benefit from an extra move, which can mean up to an extra 99 points. Also because of starting, white always has first choice over which squares to delete. After several games that starts biasing the results a little in white's favor.

Roberto Silva: In Knight Fight, I agree with lukulus - I would much rather be black.

With black, you can choose to start on the same color as White, which you can then limit the moves of white and "protect" spaces of high value and if you plan well, can then send them to a very low number and mess up their plan completely.

Since most players don't know of this "advantage" of being black & starting on the same color space, if I'm white - I will look on the opponents side of the board - find the highest value space, see what color it starts on - and then myself start on the opposet color, even if it's of lower value

Of course if you get 2 players who do little planning and just jump around until the end, then White might have the advantage of an extra move at the end - but I would still prefer to play as black.

coan.net: Some knight fight tournys are set without a random start positon like the last team tournament and I see a advantage there if you study the game well. You can also end the game in several moves and if you play correctly and have a "good"set up with high numbers in your home side corners. I don't see a advantage with the colors at knight fight as long as you can see far into the game, and must always follow your opponents line of play. Now we talk about the advantages of the start colours but I think spider games and line games have the greatest advantage and white to some players like tenuki and masterx never loose white in spiders...or I think once in many years. I don't understand how starting on one particular colour can change things in knight fight as you can move to a different colour square on the next move, but that may be your secreat weapon, lol

Isn't it time to move this discussion to the Knight Fight board?

Marshmud: Have you ever wanted to move to a square & your opponents piece has that square covered & you can't move to it? THAT is the advantage.

If black picks to start on the SAME color square as white, then black will have the option to "cover" many squared and force white not to move there.... and white will NEVER have that same ability to "cover" any squares.

So as black, if I see my opponent going after a big 9x square, I will try to "cover" it so they can't... and usually they did not plan on that and end up having to go to a much smaller square.

alanback: I'm tired of having to be politically correct on a DB. I write a response to a reply once and I make people angry. Its unbelievable people get upset to such nonsense. Is there one DB you can read where you don't have to go elsewhere to reply?

coan.net: Yes, but not in the beggining of the game,but I do see the advantage of going first and checking out blacks possibilities first, and then change your white sequence to the black line....Yes I agre there is alot of advantages to knight fight, but never noticed what you brought up, thats all. Want to play a few games?

Marshmud: take it easy please
it was just a kind suggestion to move the discussion to the board where people who are interested in the game might read it

there are some people who dont read this board as they are only interested in the games and not in the site itself ... those people might miss the discussion about the specific game

i am sure it was not meant at you personally .. just a subject which gets a lot of responses .. which therefore might be very interesting .. to show that subject to the people who are most interested in it .. and in a place where in the future people who might be interested can still find it

if i am looking for some discussion about the win/loss odds for a specific color in a specific game .. then i look at the board about that specific game

Marshmud:My suggestion was based on the fact that this has turned into a technical discussion of Knight Fight, and is not of general interest to readers of the BrainKing.com board.

alanback: I understand that now. I read all the boards, but never read each one for the topics I can or cannot discuss and only replied to the 10 or so messages before mine. Friendly discussion was my motive, not to have someone chase me off.

Marshmud:No worries!

Roberto Silva: ...You were just unlucky...

Thanks for answering - I feared that ;-)

Hrqls: there are some people who dont read this board as they are only interested in the games and not in the site itself ... those people might miss the discussion about the specific game

That, IMO, isn't a good enough reason. If people don't want to read board X, than that's their loss if there are a few posts on board X that they might be interested in. Hey, I don't read the music board, but that doesn't mean I'd like a thread to be continued on a board I do read if it's about a subject I might be interested in.

There will also be people who are interested in starting colour effects that do not read the Knight Fight board, and you'd hurt those people.

And, finally, one should spread threads out over boards too lightly. It becomes harder to follow a thread - specially if people search for it. One board will have a thread without an end - the other a thread without a beginning. A lose-lose situation. Considering there were only a few posts about Knight Fight in the general discussion about starting colour, I'd say keep the discussion together. If you don't want to read it, just scroll up.

Lotus Flower: but isnt that what your opponent does? resigns when it is hopeless.....he/she can see you are going to win so they resign.

Snoopy: I looked at the blocked use page and it says that they cannot add you to their friends list:

http://brainking.com/en/Enemies

baddessi: ah okay i didnt see that bit but does that also apply to if you know someone has you on there friends list then you put them on block
does it automatic remove them from there friends list

AbigailII: true .. a thread shouldnt be spread up .. thats why i would love it to be possible to actually move a thread instead of directing follow up posts .. on other sites where i am a mod you can move a thread (the boards are threaded there) and leave a (shadow) link to the new location of the thread

as it is right now someone reading the discussion will also see the post (in the same discussion) which directs the follow up to another board and can follow it there

where as it stays on this board it might not be found by someone in the future searching for a specific discussion about knight fight
its especially for the archiving and future searches that its preferred to put the post on the most specific board

the subject of the colors is definetly a subject for this board .. an in depth discussion of knight fight specifically might fit best on a specific knight fight board

personally, in this case, i didnt mind staying both discussion (color and knight fight) on this board .. but i understand the reason to move it .. the reason why i responded was that the response was seen as a personal issue .. which it wasnt

but best of all would be a threaded board with the possibility to move threads and leave a shadow link :)

Snoopy: does it automatic remove them from there friends list


No

Snoopy: oh...no...they have to remove you and you still have to remove them from your friends list or they will still show up..I think that's right

baddessi: so in other words even thou you have ppl on block unless you are cloaked they can still see what your doing if they already had you on therer friends list

Snoopy: They could also see what you're doing wif they had you on their Enemies List. The Friends and Enemies lists work the same way in this respect.

Besides, there is a bug in the system which causes the following: if you have someone on your Enemies list, you cannot see what they're doing when you're in a game with such person, while they can see what you are doing. In simpler words, it's the opposite from the way it should be.

Snoopy: plus they can sign off & be in guest mode and see what a person is doing... again, unless cloak. Adding someone to their enemy list does not really stop a person from seeing what you are doing, if that is indeed what you are trying to do.

I had to put myself in cloak at one time when some idiot was watching me and keeping track of what I was doing - what boards I was visiting, etc... it was really annoying. I finally stopped caring and took myself off of cloak. But cloak is the only real reason to "hide" what you are doing.

coan.net: i dont really like using cloak but my point is if you block someone it would make sense by blocking them it would automatic move me of there friends list

Snoopy: i agree with why you are saying what your saying - but the point of view you need to help make sense of what is.... is that your friends list is under your direct control - as is someone elses. Your actions will have no impact on someone elses friends list...

if i want the background color of a game board to be purple - then i select that setting - but the background color for my opponents isnt impacted by my settings.... so it is the same with the friends and blocked list.... what i do to my account impacts my lists - if i block someone they cant interact directly with me - but they can still manipulate their own settings.... even if blocking them could take you off their friends list - they could still log in as a guest (like coan said) or even just go to the online user list. The friend list is a matter of ones own personal list.

thats the best way to look at what is..... whether or not its right.....

cloak doesnt really even work - cause you can still tell the person is online - you can watch their games list to see which are moving from their turn or waiting - you can watch the boards link to see where they are posting... its really impossible to be hidden from a user - its just possible to eliminate thier ability to interact with you....

redfrog: so the bottom line is you can put cloak mode on and its useless has theres ways round it
and friends and blocked users dosnt work properly either
so whats the point in having any of them me wonders..lol

wouldnt it be better then to ask ppl if they wanted to be friends with ppl like we do if they want to be public friends

Snoopy: its really not that they dont work properly - they just dont work the way we would like them to..... they do what they are designed to do - nothing more....

blocking - prevents somone from contacting you.... no more - no less

public friends - lets the world see who you are willing to admit you are aquainted with - and people can still keep their stalker tendencies hidden on the....

friends list - helps you keep tabs on whomever you feel like.... and you cant do anything about someone elses....

cloak mode - lets everyone know that you dont care what they are doing - and makes it that much more fun for those stalking you to figure out or guess what you are up to.... now thats really just a compliment...

take the blue pill and see the world as it is.... lol

redfrog: yes but if subjects arnt brought up
how does Fencer know that ppl have a problem with them

Snoopy: very true....

Snoopy:
  

Artful Dodger: cheers
have you got any whiskey to wash it down..lol

Artful Dodger: whoa...

Snoopy:

Sorry to have to bring up again the old, old subject, but it has to be discussed somewhere, and I see no better board.

I have this opponent who invented a scheme that demotes our friend the Vanda lover to the rank of amateur. here's the system:

• Do NOT activate auto vacation.

• Have all your games of at least 5 days timeout length. you can have red-dot games, they wont' disturb the scheme.

• Now manually set vac days. Say, today is Monday and your weekend days are Saturday and Sunday. You set your vacation days as follows:

NO  NO  YES YES YES SAT SUN
YES YES YES YES YES SAT SUN
YES YES YES YES YES SAT SUN
YES YES YES YES YES SAT SUN

Etc. Leave a couple of unset days as reserve. All your 5-day games will have a timeout time far in the future. 

• Now here's the beautiful part. You never use up any vacation day! How? tomorrow is not set. Come tomorrow (Tuesday) you unset Wednesday. Your vacation days now are

DONE NO  NO  YES YES SAT SUN

Apparently the system permits you to unset a day in the future, and your unset days couter goes up by one. Every week, or so, add 5 dayes so that your future vacation days are always 4 weeks thick, at least.

And, from time to time, whenever the mood strikes you, make a move against someone in a game. Mind, do it slowly, savor the click. You do it so seldom!

The only drawback is that you have to log in daily to do this little maneuver. But you don't have to move in any game if you don't really feel up to it.

Beautiful, isn't it?

rabbitoid: It's not to be working too long.

Has the little boss option been changed, gone?

And is it that a fellowship can only have 4 boards besides the main one? If so.. could it possible be increased?

(V): Nothing has been changed.

Fencer: Ok.. My partner I can't make little boss.. is it because she's a knight?

And can we have more boards for fellowships... just a couple more would be nice please.

(V): Yes, that should be it.
How many boards?

Fencer: 2.. maybe 3 boards.

Is it possible to change it so knights can be little bosses?

(V): No. To be a Boss (of any kind) is a privilege for Brain Rooks or higher only.

Fencer: Ok... I'll get me Darling to upgrade.

Fencer: Good. Rabbitoid was starting to become paranoid :)